Dragon intrigue without magic possible?

[Lurks-no-More]

How did I do?

Very well indeed!

 

[GreatLemur]

A dragon is quite a bit different than a human. He can't, for example, walk among the city freely and normally dragons are not supposed to become nobles like humans are.

Why not?

We're talking about a tremendously intelligent, long-lived, and physically powerful creature, here. If it lands outside the walls of a city with a claw full of gold and says it wants to buy some land and invest in some local businesses, I don't expect anyone is going to yell "We only deal with humans! Man the ballistas!" That's clearly not in anybody's best interest.

You seem to be assuming some long-running enmity between humans and dragons, and that doesn't make a lot of sense if you're also assuming that dragons have no inherent alignment. Logically, a dragon should be just as free as any human to associate with civilized people. It wouldn't be able to do so inconspicuously, of course, but that ceases to be a problem as soon as it starts hiring intermediaries.

 

[Loincloth of Armour]

- Loincloth of Armour
Imo the noble is much too submissive in your examples. Nobles don't tend to be this defenseless. And even if their manor can't withstand a dragon attack even with hired adventurers as protection (or dragonslayers) they can afford to simply move into a well defended city (not the worst idea in a monster filled world either)

He's not submissive, he's not defenseless. He's enthralled, but not by magic. By power and majesty. Same way people in the real world can be submissive to religious organizations.

Have you ever stood before a religious leader, a charismatic politican, or even a tiger and felt the awesome power these entities project? A dragon is all these things wrapped up in a single Huge+ package.

Why would he move? He's worshiping the dragon. Many dragons in fiction are described as almost hypnotic in their dealings with humans. "I shouldn't follow him, I know I shouldn't. But there's something about him... something... awe inspiring. When the great wyrm looks at me, I feel like my world expands. Like I have wings myself. Look, I'm trembling. So many emotions, racing around in my head. It's like... rapture."

IIRK Smaug almost convineced Bilbo to show himself, something the hobbit knew was a BAD idea. Dragon's have that affect on people.

Sure he *could* hire dragonslayers, but he doesn't want to. Same reason people can leave cults but they don't. They're seduced.

If you don't believe an old red dragon that naturally has a charisma of 20+, max ranks in diplomacy, and frightful presence can have no effect on an NPC who is given human emotions, reactions, and foibles... then I'm sorry. I don't game in a purely mechanical universe so I'm willing to use believable character motivation. If we can't agree on this being possible then I will bow out of this.

 

[blakkgutz]

[*]Assume that dragons in this world have no inherent alignment.

I think this is huge, but no one's mentioned it yet.

Dragons live for millenia. Even the most evil dragon should be patient enough to act benevolent, helpful and friendly to nearby settlements for a few paltry human generations. Once the dragon is on the city's heraldry, and the humans hesitate to make any decision without hearing his opinion, then he can slowly indugling in his own ambition and greed. He'll be supported by thousands of humans, even misguided good ones, who believe that since the dragon has been kind and helpful for all the town's recorded history, even his current actions and decrees must somehow be justifiable. Anyone who thinks the dragon is evil is "clearly" just jealous of the city's prosperity and power. Heck, this could probably even work within a single human generation (it's not like Hitler was 1000 years old), I just stretched it out to be safe.

I hope I'm being clear. Either way, I plan on doing a more detailed write-up, jaer-style, of this scenario later today.

EDIT: of course, this works better if there is some history of actual benevolent dragons in the campaign world...

 

[GreatLemur]

...old red dragon that naturally has a charisma of 20+, max ranks in diplomacy, and frightful presence...

Damn, but that is a good point. I don't know how things'll work in 4e, but I believe an old red in 3.5 can have up to 31 ranks in Diplomacy. And that's before it gets into Charisma bonus, feats, skill synergies, etc. Makes the party Bard sound like the village drunk. Hell, makes him sound like roadkill.

 

[Set]

Set -
While this might be what a dragon tells his victims

No. With the exception of the last bit, where the dragon is talking to one of his followers, that's all the dudes who work for the 'boss' telling people what to do. The Don doesn't walk down to the deli and shakedown the owner for protection money. That's what the made men do. If the deli owner doesn't choose to pay up, well then, that's when the 'mysterious fires' start.

you do not explain how the dragon contacts those people,

He flaps the moving parts on front of his head, and words come out. Some of the low-lifes and outcasts he accosts out in the woods / plains / hills / mountains run. Some faint dead away. Others try to fight (and die, unless he finds their pluck amusing). A select few are willing to listen, and he tells them that he can make them rich and powerful, respected in the communities that cast them out. He's got a Charisma of 30ish, and if he takes 10 on a Diplomacy roll he can light a campfire with sheer charisma (slight exagerration, but Bob the Woodcutter, Expert 2, with his Wisdom score of 10 isn't going to know the difference!).

Starting with bandits and brigands and other 'free spirits' who don't generally get to live in the comfy towns, the Red Dragon builds up a little gang of thugs, who recruit an even better class of more useful thugs (and, from the Dragon's point of view, the less useful thugs die off pretty fast anyway, which is handy, since they were just a stepping stone to useful minions). Disaffected noble sons, second to seventh in line for their daddy's fortunes, and disaffected noble *daughters,* whose best hope in life is to not be married off to some dude who isn't *too* fat, old and nasty, will be even more likely to take up the offer of joining an organization 'that runs things behind the scenes' and whose enemies 'tend to die in the night, usually in a fire...'

nor how it protects itself from retaliation.

Same way other Dragons do, by incinerating any fool that makes a play against him, but, in this case, the Dragon has an entire network of humans (or whatever) working for him.

The uberWizard ElMunchkin blows into town, having heard that there is a Dragon in the mountains nearby, and the more questions he asks of the townsfolk he has come to 'save from the menace,' the more likely that the information that he's seeking the Dragon will get to the Dragon, who may arrange for something to 'happen' to the inn he's staying in. And that's not 'sudden Dragon attack in the night,' that's just, 'gang of thugs set fire to the inn and stand back to see what happens' or 'Wizard rescues cute waifish 13 year old street rat from some contrived situation, and wakes up the next day to find out that his spellbook has been soaked in black ink, and his spell component pouch replaced with a handful of tacks.'

Those pesky Commoners can really inconvenience anyone who'se come to 'mess with the boss,' and they might not be doing so for evil reasons. If 'the boss' keeps other hostile forces at bay, or is prone to flipping out and destroying parts of the town if the townsfolk 'fail' to warn him about these sorts of things, it's in the townsfolk's best interest to make sure that they pass on the word ASAP.

Also I don't see how the dragon gains the, by my rules, required influence.

He's got, by fantasy town standards, superhuman levels of charisma, intellect and wealth, most likely *many times* more wealth than the rich family up on the hill or Mayor Grumblestunt, and he's a heck of a lot more persuasive, and personally powerful.

If he can't figure out how to get someone to do something, then he's an overgrown iguana with an Int score of 2 that will likely be put out of his misery by other dragons, who are tired of being embarassed by him at family gatherings...

Plus Half-Dragons seem to still be in 4E. Even if Half-Dragons or Dragonborn or whatever *don't* have a racial knack for Sorcery, they are still going to be stronger and more intimidating than most average specimens of their mom's species, making them highly effective 'leaders' for the 'organization.' Indeed, a clever Dragon may not allow anyone other than his direct children to know that he's the Capo di Tutti, letting the lower ranking thugs and contacts and fences and safehouse-minders think that the Half-Dragons are in charge. If the Half-Dragons *do* have a knack for Sorcery, that just greatly increases the power of the organization. If they don't, they can still pick up levels of other useful classes, even NPC classes, from Rogue to Expert to Adept, and provide appropriate services.

Note that this relationship would not be exactly like that of a modern crime-boss and his gang. Yes, he'd get in charge through the usual combination of attracting people who don't think they have any better opportunities and impressing them with his charisma, wealth and / or brutality, keeping them happy by making sure that they get to keep enough of their filthy lucre to live more comfortably than they feel that they could working a legitimate 'job.' But he also serves as the big gun. The Dragon will perform a function that the average 'crime-boss' does not, in that he can fly out at night and deliver an object lesson to any rival organization or entity that has interfered with 'the bidness.'

Merchants bringing in goods and not cooperating with the 'tax' scheme? Pity that their caravans never seem to make it to town. Darn bandits! Mayor Grumblestunt making noise about how crime is out of control and the people need to 'take back the night?' Nasty hunting accident, that. I can't imagine what could have scared his horse into running right off the sea-cliffs like that.

The Dragon doesn't need to land in the middle of town and try to talk people into following him. That's just daft. Even humans don't usually work that way, and we all kind of walk around the dude on the box who is street-preaching. If the crazy street-preacher weighed a couple of tons and breathed fire, I'd avoid that street entirely!

Take a few weeks, fly out by night, find people who are already out and about and away from the mainstream (such as bandits and outcasts) and let them serve as the first step. A few coins, some help fulfilling their tiny dreams of vengeance and gaining 'respect' from those that have shunned them, and they'll lead the way to the juicier recruits, the disgruntled scribe, willing to gossip about the papers he's forced to transcribe for the Mayor, the drunken guardsman who got himself into debt gambling and now just 'needs a hand' and is willing to let slip the tax collectors route in exchange for a few coins to save him from getting his kneecaps busted, etc.

In a few short decades (by Dragon standards), the 'gang' will include Half-Dragon 'bosses,' and the 'old school' thugs and outcasts will have fallen to age or attrition, leading eventually to a much more productive group of informants and contacts that lead from noble bedchambers to the sewers beneath the city (the city that cropped up from that little town on the river that always seemed to get the most favorable trade-deals, or at least benefitted from their competitors 'rotten luck'...), with almost none of them having the slightest clue that they work for a, ha ha, 'dragon.' Silly notion, aren't dragons just big fire-breathing rampaging beasts? Why on earth would a big lizard want to know about the Captain of the Guard's affair with the King's niece?

 

[S'mon]

I'll admit that Dragonslayer does have more magic than Dragonheart, but not the same as D&D. You do make much more sense when I picture the correct movie, though.

Good. I'd say the level of magic in Dragonslayer was pretty close to some lower magic D&D (and other fantasy game settings), and higher than some. You could emulate it pretty easily with eg Moldvay-Cook Basic-Expert D&D.

 

[S'mon]

S'mon
As others have said, Dragonslayyer is not a D&D world.

*shrug* Like I said, it's pretty much exactly the kind of plot I might run in my D&D world. Or in a quiet part of Greyhawk, for that matter. If you're saying it's not 3e, well yes.

 

[Imperialus]

"Your Grace, the peasants in Hillsdale have gathered together tribute of, ahem, 75 gold pieces and a masterwork suit of plate, which they claim is all they could scrape together. They beseech your intervention in the matter of the Hobgoblin raids that have been destroying their crops, poaching their livestock and taking away prisoners for who knows what foul ends. They have thoughtfully provided this map showing the location of the so-called 'fort' in which these brutes are currently holed up."

"That 'fort' is built over some old Dwarven mines."

"I did not know that, your Grace."

"Of course not, your grandparents weren't born yet. Tell the sniveling weaklings that I accept the first half of their tribute, and that the Hobgoblins shall be dealt with. I expect the remainder of their debt to me to be paid at the end of the next growing season, or there shall be consequences."

"That seems exceedingly generous, great one..."

"The Hobgoblin raiders may well be using these captured villagers to work the mines, and there may be some value in claiming this site. Once I kill enough of them, the remaining Hobgoblins will be informed that they are operating within my territory, and that the local villages are part of my domain. Things should proceed smoothly. I will encourage them to take slaves from the other side of the forest, and keep the mines open..."

LOVE IT! Yoinking that one.

 

[jaer]

In my book, great. Already copy-pasted for my 4e campaign

Hehehe - let me know how that works out for you. I think I'll tuck this away into my "potentials" folder and see if I don't use it as a campaign. Think it could be fun to have Thomas, Captain of the Guard, be the one 'employing' the adventures in the beginning.

First, dealing with a small orc raid. Then, there are the bandits on the road. After that, some trouble with theives guilds. Small things that the PCs never run to completion - Thomas never has them persue the orcs or capture all the bandits. Maybe they start seeing the influences of the kobolds in a few different areas, like when they are sent to run off some hobgoblins, they catch sight of one the red skinned little guys. Later, in dealing some rogue guild stuff, they keep finding charred bodies. Sooner or later they find an old bounty poster for the were-rats still hanging somewhere, a decent reward on it too. Asking about it "oh, they were never found, but they seemed to have moved on. Still, if they are there, we would pay out the reward" and if the PCs go to check, they find a small cluster of kobolds in the sewer instead of were-rats.

The PCs spend the entire time encountering Ard's minions, even working for one, and neither Thomas nor the PCs realize they are working against Ard, or that Ard is setting up the situations for Thomas's advancement, and the PCs are helping him. The only connection between the goings on is this mysterious Scarlet Fang group (which Thomas refused to acknowledge) and the weird red kobolds that seem to pop up in the strangest places....


I never even considered that, RAW would allow for a dragon with mad diplomacy to simply approach a noble and convince him to join. After all, a decent dragon could have a Diplomacy bonus of about +40, which would turn even hostile opponents to friendly! (I never liked using Diplomacy that way, but it is undeniable!)

I think, as per Derren's rules, the problem with the "approach the noble" scheme is that, at any time, should the noble decide to turn on the dragon (when he realized the promises are empty and that it is not a profitable arrangement), he has the means to hire the adventuring company to go after it. He might not know where it is, but he does know it is out there (and that it might come back to his house).

Same with the mob-boss dragon. Should the villagers send out a plea that this dragon is extorting their village and demands tribute in the form of crops and gold, then adventures would respond and rid the area of the creature, even if the town was, orignially, dealing with the creature as an authoritatize entity.

Not that I don't buy the dragon in both of those roles as a dominating force. I think both work as a good answer to the dragon-without-spells as a mastermind.