Dragon intrigue without magic possible?

[Rechan]

I've honestly never ran a dragon using spells in the first place, so yeah, I think it's possible.

 

[Imperialus]

A slightly different take on Sets idea, I adapted it to the POL concept.

The PC’s “home town” or whatever, the starting point for the campaign. It’s in a small “state” as it were with power and influence equal to a minor Holy Roman Empire princedom (say Nuremburg) during the 15th century. Stable, but not exactly a major player. It is part of the “Protectorate of the Dragon”. Now “The Dragon” can be of any type. Good, Evil, doesn’t matter. The point is, he’s the big power in the region. The various city states, and principalities are largely independent but the dragon is basically a large focal point for an alliance. Each of the member states give tithes to the dragon in exchange for “protection” and guarantee to aid each other too.

Think about it, a politically motivated dragon would have thousands of years to gather influence. A truly unchanging dynasty, he provides stability, after all no need to worry about ending up with a psycho inheriting the throne but on the flip side, he isn’t interested in micromanaging. This means that many disparate peoples could be drawn into the alliance, even if they normally hate each other. Think of the possibilities of PC’s and Orcs fighting alongside against a “common” foe.

In this case the dragon likely isn’t an opponent for the PC’s, though he might be if they go up against another “Dragon State”. Actually, this could be the basis for an entire campaign world… An entire world run by a tiny cabal of dragons. Excuse me, I think I might have some writing do do.

 

[WayneLigon]

[*]The target is a "normal" human kingdom with nobles etc.
[*]Either use a Adult, Old or Ancient red dragon (Say in your post which one. The older the dragon the more extensive its intrigue must be).
[*]The dragon should at least be able to influence the ruler of a big city. Leaders of powerful guilds, nobles or even kings is preferred (and for the ancient dragon required).

How does a dragon become a big player? All I need to look at is his INT and WIS score. Taking in mind that the monsters presented in the MM are the weakest of their kind, that means the weakest, most worthless specimen of the Old red dragons has a 20 Int and a 21 Wis. Who needs magic with those two advantages? We speak of those few people that have both a high Int and Wis with respect and admiration, and in our mundane world none of those men whose deeds and words ring down to us through history probably had over a 17 in either score. Now you're talking an inhumanly superior intelligence that is also tempered with a superior understanding of how people and the world works.

I can't really convey in words what an astounding advantage that is. The kingdom undoubtably has people that are adept at the political game, who think they plan for the long game, who think they are masters at manipulation and deceipt and treachery, who comb their beards thinking they are The Top Dog.

They're wrong. So wrong that they might as well be particularly stupid children playing with dried dog crap under the porch. They are outgunned and out-maneuvered before they ever enter the playing field compared with an Old Red Dragon. If he's taken an interest in, for some reason, becoming involved in the politics of a human kingdom then he'll wind up running the place inside of ten years just because he's much smarter than everyone around him. It's really hard to model the kind of advantage that gives you in D&D game terms, though. I simply consider a group to be 'out thought' at every turn.

Just imagine what that must be like? Not only every plan you've made has been thought of, planned for, and taken into account but every plan you're capable of thinking of has been as well.

How does the dragon gain and keep followers? Simple speech, backed up by gold and promises. There never will be a shortage of humans who will be content to follow the orders of another, and there has never been a human as adept at pushing living game peices around as a dragon. Our dragon finds a likely set of followers; say, a small mercenary troop. They can do nothing to it, physically, and so.. it talks to the leader. It convinces him - easy enough, since it's vastly smarter than he is - that with it as a backer then the commander can grow in power. What does it get in return? Why, it simply wants x, x being whatever it thinks the commander will beleive. It'll talk with him a time, and x will be something tailor-made to the man's beliefs, something he'll accept with little question.

Battles are fought, and because of the dragon's superior tactical sense those battles are won. A brilliant and successful battlefield commander has tremendous pull, and the dragon speaks through him to the people of the kingdom. Eventually, our mercenary commander is Captain of the Guard, and has the ear of the king himself. Maybe the dragon is content to manipulate things through the captain (and, by now, other human servants) or maybe he makes sure that the handsome captain and the Queen get together once the King is out of the way. A hunting trip, a rousing chase across hill and dale after a prize stag, suddenly OMFGZ it's a dragon! Captain, having favor with the Queen, becomes King. A brilliant and noted military hero, the people welcome him with open arms. His fair and just laws, suggested by the dragon, guarentee him support from everyone in the kingdom.

Then things begin to change.

Taxes are raised a bit, and the arguements for doing so are just inarguable. I mean, how could you ever think differently? The dragon is pleased as extra golden mattress-stuffing begins to arrive by the cart load. Gradually over the years, a wedge is driven into the collective psyche of the land. Things that just a few years ago would have been unthinkable breaches of peace and morals are now common, and it's right and just that they should be this way. It's progress, don't you know? The country moving forward. Things have never been so good. Hey, that new work camp for criminal youths way back in the Blasted Hills? They had an accident there and six young men and woman were killed. How terrible, but then they were criminals anyway. The guards there know that the boys and girls went to feed the dragon's hunger, but probably no-one else does.

Spies in the real world use a similar technique. They find a weakness in a person, and exploit it. They gradually, over time, widen that flaw. Soon it's just not a question that, hey, Mike would like to see the cool plans for the microprocessor we're working on and why not? Within a couple years, they can move from cold contact to having a person routinely bringing home ultra-classified documents for the spy to copy, and think absolutely nothing of it. This is how a dragon operates.

Now, a word about the servants. The dragon not only has an inhumanly keen insight into his subjects, but he has a level of personal experience that no human can match due to his age. Give that dragon even marginal conditions and he can tear down a person's personality and then rebuild it in the space of a few weeks, just by talk. He's the ultimate psychological torturer, able to strip-mine a man's personality and then install a new one, one more loyal to the dragon.

Our captain has long ago become basically a shell through which the dragon speaks. His personality has been hollowed out and cored, and what gets poured into that mold over the months and years is something that is totally the dragon's creature.

 

[Imperialus]

ooo a creepy Orwellian dragon. Cool. Why do there have to be so many great ideas out there?

 

[green slime]

I think, as per Derren's rules, the problem with the "approach the noble" scheme is that, at any time, should the noble decide to turn on the dragon (when he realized the promises are empty and that it is not a profitable arrangement), he has the means to hire the adventuring company to go after it. He might not know where it is, but he does know it is out there (and that it might come back to his house).

Same with the mob-boss dragon. Should the villagers send out a plea that this dragon is extorting their village and demands tribute in the form of crops and gold, then adventures would respond and rid the area of the creature, even if the town was, orignially, dealing with the creature as an authoritatize entity.

Not that I don't buy the dragon in both of those roles as a dominating force. I think both work as a good answer to the dragon-without-spells as a mastermind.

But you are here forgetting that the dragon is not unintelligent, nor unwise. WHy would the promises be empty?!? It realises that it must provide adequately for its underlings, as well as the underlings understand that turning against the dragon will incur its wrath. Probably far worse than any mobster. The noble can't just turn his back against the dragon because:
1) He may party to heinious crimes and treasonous actions, against country or close relatives.
2) He can't be certain about who in his immediate circle of peers are also agents of the dragon.
3) He can't even be certain if the mercenaries he contacts aren't really agents of the dragon.

You have to admit, that given these circumstances, it is far simpler for the dragon to have someone assassinate the noble, than the noble recruit high level, reliable adventurers to engage the dragon. Enough to give the noble at least reason to pause. The noble has far more to lose: wealth, standing, lifestyle, friends, family.

Given the medieval taxes and chruch tithes, why would the village or town consider it such a burden? Any ruler demands taxes. The dragon can afford to lower the tax rate for a few decades, and attract other towns and villages who would want to join its protectorate.

"Over at Drakenville, they pay less taxes, no import duties, and have no problems with orcs or bandits! They have hill giants building the roads, instead of tearing down the farms! We should join them!"

 

[jaer]

But you are here forgetting that the dragon is not unintelligent, nor unwise. WHy would the promises be empty?!? It realises that it must provide adequately for its underlings, as well as the underlings understand that turning against the dragon will incur its wrath. Probably far worse than any mobster. The noble can't just turn his back against the dragon because:
1) He may party to heinious crimes and treasonous actions, against country or close relatives.
2) He can't be certain about who in his immediate circle of peers are also agents of the dragon.
3) He can't even be certain if the mercenaries he contacts aren't really agents of the dragon.

You have to admit, that given these circumstances, it is far simpler for the dragon to have someone assassinate the noble, than the noble recruit high level, reliable adventurers to engage the dragon. Enough to give the noble at least reason to pause. The noble has far more to lose: wealth, standing, lifestyle, friends, family.

Given the medieval taxes and chruch tithes, why would the village or town consider it such a burden? Any ruler demands taxes. The dragon can afford to lower the tax rate for a few decades, and attract other towns and villages who would want to join its protectorate.

"Over at Drakenville, they pay less taxes, no import duties, and have no problems with orcs or bandits! They have hill giants building the roads, instead of tearing down the farms! We should join them!"

I fully realize that dragon is uber intelligent and would not be renegging on, say, giving the noble wealth. However, what "empty promises" could mean is that the noble now feels like a pawn, not the power. While in the dragon's presense, he is overwhelmed. When not, his ego is shattered and he needs to rid himself of this crazed tormentor. He lives in constant fear: who is in league with the dragon? Who are his allies and who are spies?

Under the yoke of this oppressive entity, the noble might feel as though he already lost his wealth, his friends, his family: he has lost control of his world, which seems reason enough to me for the noble to turn against the dragon.

Sure, the dragon is old and wise and intelligent; it has had pawns before and it knows the signs when they have out-lived their usefulness. It might kill this noble and seek out another just fine; that's how it always ends. Some nobles will follow the dragon unswirvingly to the end, but others will want more than to just be the pawn, they will want to take over the show and attempt a coup. 9 times out of 10 the noble gets killed before he can turn on the dragon, maybe 99 times out of 100. But the dragon can't see everything all the time or else they could never be defeated.

And the rule Derren presented was if the minions could hire a group of adventures to end the dragon's reign over them. I would also add the conjecture of if the would do so. In the scenerio presented, there is both opportunity to do so and plausible reason to do so: after all, how many people have tried to overthrow their mob-bosses? It happens.

The second example of the dragon controlling the town, this does not seem like a villainous dragon, which seemed the point of the task. But that was merely my interpetation of the spirit of Deren's rules. After all, one could simply present the possibility of a gold dragon being every watchful on the king's family, looking for the oppotunity to sweep down and save them from danger if the need arises (and in a dangerous world, it could happen).

The dragon introduced himself, and becomes the prince's protector, and while doing so, his educator and advisor. When the prince becomes king, the dragon is already an influence. And when the king has children, the dragon is their protector and educator as well. It continues for a few generations until it has solidified it's role as the protector and educator and chief advisor of the royal family. At which point, it practically controls the kingdom since it educates the royals from birth, most likely has it's own wing of the castle and hoard.

With not alignment standard...any dragon could do this pretty much anywhere. Though, at some point, in even a well-run kingdom with a benevolent king (with a benevolent dragon advisor), I'm sure some group of nobles will want to take over the kingdom, which would involve killing the royal family, or at least ousting them, and they have this ancient dragon protecting them...so someone would need to be hired to kill the dragon...which once again runs into Derren's rule about minions being able to and wanting to hire adventures to take out the dragon.

 

[Slife]

You know Tucker's kobolds?

Yeah. Imagine them guided by, and with the support of, a freakin' dragon.

 

[Set]

I fully realize that dragon is uber intelligent and would not be renegging on, say, giving the noble wealth. However, what "empty promises" could mean is that the noble now feels like a pawn, not the power.

Has the noble ever been anything else? No matter his station, he's not the King. But he's got something the King doesn't know a thing about, a level of power that the King would kill to have at his back. The noble, if he's clever, might even think that *he's* the one manipulating the dragon, and that it's some sort of 'big gun' at his disposal (and the dragon may choose to allow this notion to persist, to a point...). Even if the dragon is working directly with the King of the land (behind the scenes), the King might be foolish enough to believe that this is normal, that the dragon has *always* served the crown as a valuable ally, to be treated respectfully in it's presence, but basically an asset to the kingdom. After all, the dragon 'advised' his father, and his father's father, and rumor has it, advised the vary first King who united the warring lands with the help of the dragon's sage council!

While in the dragon's presense, he is overwhelmed. When not, his ego is shattered and he needs to rid himself of this crazed tormentor.

If the dragon, in it's superhuman intellect and wisdom, *chooses* to break the will of one or more of his supporters, then it will be someone who won't have the strength of will to fight that process.

In the real world, the most vicious gang-bosses often have extremely loyal 'soldiers,' who *enjoy* the fearful respect that they gain from the people around them, who recognize that they are 'made men,' and that they are untouchable, as they work for 'the boss.' And yes, they are all-too aware that the same power-drill and chainsaw 'lessons' could be applied to them if they forget their place. They have a 'good thing' going. Why mess with it, especially when you know that the consequences are a sudden transition from 'well off and successful, with the fear and respect of everyone around you' to 'painful slow demise, as an object lesson to anyone else who wants to break faith with the boss.' Blood in. Blood out. You're in the gang? You're in the gang for life. That can be a long time, with plenty of coin, respect, wine, women and song, or a very short time, with a lot of pain. You get to choose.

Some people can't live being second dog. They won't work for a dragon anymore than they would be loyal to their king, or emperor, or god. They'll die, or succeed in seizing power, in any event, but they'll have a harder time seizing power from a dragon than they would assassinating their king and seizing his throne...

He lives in constant fear: who is in league with the dragon? Who are his allies and who are spies?

If he *wants* to live in fear of the creature that advised everyone in his family and built them up from ruffians in the forests to the 'noble' family in the manor on the hill, then that's his choice. By the time that the dragon has established himself to this extent, he's *an institution.* People grow up knowing the rules, the code of silence, the way things have gone for decades, if not centuries.

Under the yoke of this oppressive entity, the noble might feel as though he already lost his wealth, his friends, his family: he has lost control of his world, which seems reason enough to me for the noble to turn against the dragon.

Someone might well decide that *he* wants to be the big gun, and most of the people working for the dragon would still have no idea where the information they pass upwards goes exactly. A noble who occupies a key position and funnels information and resources more directly to the dragon would be *ideally* suited to seizing control of the network (and becoming the new place where the information and gold moving up the pyramid stops) if something where to happen to the dragon.

Sounds like an adventure plot! If the noble not only has the stones to move against a dragon, but the resources to actually pose a credible threat, more power to him!

Some disposable adventurers are promised the sun, the moon and the shining stars by this noble, who wants only to rescue his poor oppressed people from this cruel monsters depredations and demands of tribute. Oh, the horror! Can you save us, brave adventurers? If the adventurers seem to be able to do the job, the noble steps in and takes total control of the network, which is really no different than the sort of extortion / protection-racket which exemplified the feudal systems lord / serf relationship. Woot for the noble, while the lower classes think, 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss' *completely unaware* that the dragon-killing adventurers just 'saved them' from anything, since nothing in their day to day lives improves one bit.

If the adventurers don't seem up to the task, the noble can alert some of the many other resources controlled by the dragon, and the dragon himself, of the impending threat, and so further ingratiate himself to his 'boss.'

"Yes great one, the mercenary thugs offered their services to me, saying that they had heard of signs that a dragon preyed on our lands. What do you wish me to tell them? Shall I agree upon their price and 'hire' them, sending them into a trap, or do you wish for me to attempt to deceive them and instruct them that the tales are but a myth, that no dragon has been sighted in these lands since my grandfathers day?"

Either path is supremely dangerous. If the dragon suspects betrayal, and survives the adventurers attack, the noble will indeed finally have to live in the fear spoken of above, as he has betrayed the benefactor who made his family's fortune in the first place!

 

[NealTS]

There's also the evolutionary angle to consider. Unless either humans or dragons are "new" to the world, then dragons will have been living alongside humans since long before we developed the powerful magic and weapons of war needed to kill one of those beasts. What in the gods' names are a bunch of cavemen with sharpened sticks and chipped stone knives supposed to do against a dragon?

The answer is, obviously, not a whole hell of a lot. As a result, before civilization ever even really got off the ground, humanity (except for a few isolated pockets) would have been hunted to extinction or (ulp!) domesticated by the lizard kings. Going off the differences between a dog and a wolf, maybe halfilings are "domesticated" men while bog standard humans are their "wild" counterparts?

 

[Umbran]

I don't think that under these circumstances the dragon is able to put up a working political intrigue. Lets see if you can prove me wrong.

Well, would you expect a high-level fighter (like the general of a notable army - I hesitate to use "warlord", lest I cause confusion with class names) to be able to run an intrigue? If so, then the dragon can too.