Dragon intrigue without magic possible?

[Derren]

I'm back.
I won't comment on everyone, that would be too long.

-jaer
A nice writeup. Yes, that generally would be possible without magic. Although there are some points I am not completely satisfied with.

First, it all goes to well. There are too many opportunities for (N)PCs to screw up this plan to list them all, but please comment on the more obvious ones. What when the villages in the beginning are not so easily subjugated? What if someone finds out that Thomas is being bribed by unknown forces? Or simply that an ambitious guardsman has an eye on Thomas post? What if some nobles find out that he and the other nobles are being used like this?
And what would happen is some diviner uses divination on the Rot Grub or Scarlet Fangs?

Also some parts are not detailed enough. How does the communication between Ard and the operatives in the city happen? Especially as only the kobolds are allowed to know about Ard, the communication would be very slow. What would happen if there was an emergency?
Speaking of an emergency, what would happen if adventurers arrive? With level 15 they are easily able to dismantle all organizations in the city except maybe Thomas. What would happen if they come after Ard himself? How would he defend himself against them? And don't assume that the adventurers start at level 1 batteling the minions. That is ok for a campaign but I am more interested in the general possibility of this.

- Pbartender and others
A dragon can't simply buy things with its money. it need agents to do that. And there the trouble begins. The dragon needs this agents, needs a supply chain for them, needs to communicate regulary with them etc.

- Loincloth of Armour
I'm not buying that. A dragon is huge and fear inspiring, but as soon it flies away any "enthrall" effect it had is gone. Maybe some weak nobles will fear it so much to not do anything, but a noble who fought his way up and still has to fight to keep his position (and imo that are the majority) will react very differently, certainly not with submission.

- blakkgutz
Assume whatever you want. Dragons behaved like humans just on a larger scale. Some were nice, some were bad. When humans (or other races) see a dragon they are not sure how the dragon will treat them.

- Set
Much too sketchy for my taste. Please detail it more. Start with explaining how the dragon knows that the wizard showed up within a day or two.

- Imperialus
Its an idea but so far not really detailed. I hope you will expand it as it is a different idea than what the others so far posted. Also keep in mind that I want a dragon as enemy of a typical PC group, not ally.

- WayneLigon
Please don't argue with "The dragon has high Int/Wis/Cha scores, he will find a way". Provide examples and also assume that not everything might go according to the plan.

- NealTS
I know, but thats a general problem of D&D. Simply ignore that for now.


There has been a nice story of a scheming dragon and some nice ideas, but so far everyone forgets that D&D is a high magic world.
The opposition of the dragon have, depending on their position, access to a lot of magic which so far isn't accounted for. For examples assassinating nobles would be quite hard as they would have several magical protections active all the time. How are they overcome?
You would need higher level minions to counter all the magic the "good" guys might employ and then you run into the problem that the minions are running the show.
Also explain the communication issue a bit more. How does the dragon stay in touch with his agents and how does he keep an eye out on possible enemies? Also explain what would happen in an emergency (for example a party of level appropriate (to the dragon) adventurers teleport into the cit to "clean things up"). Also don't forget that bigger towns already do have some high level NPCs living in them.

Thanks

 

[D.Shaffer]

I'd say just forget it's a dragon to begin with. Any dragon is just a large NPC with built in artillery, way above average stats, more money then most PC's know what to do with, and skill ranks up the wazoo. Figure out how ANY NPC without inherent spellcasting can be the big bad and then replace with the dragon instead.

 

[Hussar]

Originally Posted by Derren
I don't think that under these circumstances the dragon is able to put up a working political intrigue. Lets see if you can prove me wrong.

Just a point here. Intrigue is what you do when you lack the power to do something directly. You plot and scheme to get people to do what you want them to do.

Why, exactly, would a CR 15 Red Dragon bother? If he wants you to do something, you either do it, or he eats you. He has the power. He has the power in spades.

There has been a nice story of a scheming dragon and some nice ideas, but so far everyone forgets that D&D is a high magic world.

That is incorrect. D&D does not default to a high magic world. Outside of a metropolis, you will not find double digit PC levels in the population. Dominating a small city would be a simple thing indeed. Flocks of archers don't work, because they can't see at night, and the dragon has low light vision. He can see perfectly well on all but the darkest of nights.

Never mind that those flocks of archers need clerics to magic weapon up their weapons, and, even then, need close to 1000 magic arrows to be effective. At night, they'd need 2000. You simply couldn't do it. Never mind an older dragon.

 

[Derren]

Just a point here. Intrigue is what you do when you lack the power to do something directly. You plot and scheme to get people to do what you want them to do.

Why, exactly, would a CR 15 Red Dragon bother? If he wants you to do something, you either do it, or he eats you. He has the power. He has the power in spades.

A cr 15 dragon is not strong enough to attack a larger city or even influence a whole kingdom with pure strength alone. So yes, the dragon does need intrigue.

That is incorrect. D&D does not default to a high magic world. Outside of a metropolis, you will not find double digit PC levels in the population. Dominating a small city would be a simple thing indeed. Flocks of archers don't work, because they can't see at night, and the dragon has low light vision. He can see perfectly well on all but the darkest of nights.

Never mind that those flocks of archers need clerics to magic weapon up their weapons, and, even then, need close to 1000 magic arrows to be effective. At night, they'd need 2000. You simply couldn't do it. Never mind an older dragon.

You forget that any D&D city has, in addition to hundreds of archers, many mid to high level NPCs. I don't have the city generation rules memorized but such a city does have the chance to have several level 15 NPCs.. Technically those NPCs are enough to seriously threaten the dragon. Add in all other classed NPCs and the dragon has no chance.
And even if the dragon destroys the city, it will be killed by the retaliation of the army or adventurers.


Even attacking at night doesn't change that much thanks to magic. And I do consider D&D to be a high magic world because magic is everywhere and everyone of some status has access to it.

 

[WayneLigon]

Please don't argue with "The dragon has high Int/Wis/Cha scores, he will find a way". Provide examples and also assume that not everything might go according to the plan.

You have examples, several of them in fact.

For someone with a superhumanly high intelligence and wisdom, 'failure of a plan' really isn't an option. We've been somewhat conditioned by movies and TV to think that a group of plucky misfits acting chaotically will foil even the most well-laid plan by the evil masterminds, and it IS a good story, but 'realistically' that isn't going to happen.

You seem to assume that everyone of conseuquence in the world has the same amount of magic as some tricked-out uber-competant special-forces-esque adventuring group, as if they were in some kind of arms race with them. I think in most people's campaigns, that isn't the norm. It certainly isn't in mine. Nobles and major merchants and the like are lucky if they're 3rd or 4rth level at the very most, and though they might be able to commission some magical protections most of those aren't going to prevent an assassin from doing his job. So what if you commissioned some Bracers of Armor +5? You don't wear that stuff to bed and it certainly doesn't protect you from poison or even a chambermaid with a pillow over your face.

How does the dragon communicate to it's followers? It freakin' talks to them just like everyone else communicates with their followers. They go to it's lair and receive instructions, then carry them out. Why do they carry them out? Fear, hope of reward, desire to serve something powerful... any of the whole gamut of human reasons why anyone does anything. People are, always, still people. That's as much of an example or as much detail as you need.

 

[GreatLemur]

- Pbartender and others
A dragon can't simply buy things with its money. it need agents to do that. And there the trouble begins. The dragon needs this agents, needs a supply chain for them, needs to communicate regulary with them etc.

I'm still not seeing any justification for this assumption. Who in the hell is going to refuse a dragon's money?

Even if all the merchants are holed up somewhere the dragon is physically too large to access, all it would need to do is find a one-time runner to establish communication. When the farmer's son stumbles into the import/export guild and says a bloody great lizard landed in his pumpkin field with a crate full of gold and said it wants to talk to a guild representative, they'll certainly laugh at him . . . until he shows them the pouch full of loot the dragon gave him to as an attention-getter, after which they'll damned well send a rep out to the farm.

No complicated network of human agents is necessary. When you've got money, people are generally eager to come to you.

 

[WayneLigon]

You forget that any D&D city has, in addition to hundreds of archers ...

Archers, heh Let's say the city has 2000 archers and they are ready and waiting for the creature. The Old Red Dragon shows itself.

19 of 20 archers - indeed, everyone within 240' - fail their save against the fear aura and go into a blind mad panic for 4d6 rounds, dropping everything they have and fleeing at their top speed - the DC 29 Frightful Presence save is impossible for them to make and only because D&D allows you to auto-save on a natural 20 do any archers still exist at all. None of those militia types are going to be over 4 HD save for a handful of old veterans. You can count on most of those 1900 people not coming back to the walls, either. You don't have an army at that point, you have a mob.

That leaves us 100 archers. They fire. The five guys that roll a natural 20 actually have a chance to do damage to the dragon. Their d8 arrows bounce off it's DR 10 hide.

Thus endeth the role of normal city militia archers against an Old Red Dragon.

Sorry, I don't see them having stores of magical arrows waiting around to be used. Nobody has the 600,000gp to equip 2000 archers with 20 +1 magic arrows. If they do, wow, I am so moving to that city. Whole quivers of +1 arrows laying around to be stolen from 17-year-old ex-farmboy recruits? Gimme some of that.

 

[Someone]

The dragons descibed in the OP can communicate, therefore they can participate in whatever intrigue they want, and since they can be of any aligment (like humans) isn't reasonable to think that everyone will react to them differently to very powerful humans. Also isn't reasonable to counter every argument with "rivals hire dragonslayers - dragon die"

 

[Someone]

Here's my example: There's a pass through some mountains that separate the aggresive empire of A from the peaceful (if rich) kingdom of B, which is a fat ready target for A.

Dragon lands on the pass, and declares the region his. He'll impose a reasonable tribute on trade, and won't tolerate armed forces on it (he divuges those news through merchants he found on the pass)

If a bit worried by having a dragon so close, the king of B can't believe his luck. As long th dragon is there, he can't be invaded, and the dragon tax isn't too large to damage his economy. His spies in the court of A inform him that the emperor of A is forming a team of his best men to hunt the dragon down, and sends messengers to the dragon to warn him, with specific details about the team's plans.

The dragon was already quite aware of that, having taken already precautions about that, and allows himself to be "found" by the messengers. He thanks the king of B, via the messengers sent, and informs that, in gratitude, he's amenable to defend the country against further threats.

The mutual benefit between the kingdom and the dragon continues: the kingdom provides money and intelligence, and the dragon provides military force, until at some point, a couple generations after that (a mere blink in a dragon's life), people are used to their dragon protecting them and the dragon becomes the kingdom's only standing army, once you discount militias doing police work. At that point, organizing a cup de etat is trivially easy. Long live Dragon I.

 

[Dausuul]

I don't think it's entirely fair to require 3.5E, since a) 3.5E dragons are balanced around having spells, and b) 3.5E spellcasters are grossly overpowered. But here we go.

Ancient red dragon. Its lair is veiled by a whole slew of permanent illusion spells provided by its bard minion (see below). Among these is an illusion of the dragon sleeping on the east side of its lair. The dragon itself wears a ring of invisibility and sleeps on the west side. Scry-and-fry attempts are likely to end messily for the intruders... especially since the dragon's 12th-level kobold sorceror sleeps in the same room and has greater anticipate teleportation up 24/7. The kobold only leaves when the dragon is awake.

The dragon is served directly by four erinyes devils; a 12th-level kobold sorceror, a couple of 6th-level kobold sorcerors, and a tribe of lesser kobolds; and an 18th-level human bard. The dragon recruited the erinyes by making a deal with a pit fiend; in exchange for the erinyes' services, the dragon provides a steady stream of victims for blood sacrifices, fuelling the fiend's advancement in the hierarchy of the Hells. The erinyes use their teleport and charm powers to act as the dragon's agents and messengers. The bard is the dragon's "high priest," and leader of its cult.

The kobold sorcerors keep the dragon's lair warded with alarm spells and the like, and the 12th-level one provides teleport capability for the bard. The normal kobolds build traps, dig tunnels, and so forth. They live in and around the dragon's lair and feed off small rodents and animals that live in the vicinity, as well as scraps from the dragon's kills.

Indirectly, the dragon has a cult of worshippers extending across several kingdoms. With the bard's prodigious social skills and the supernatural charms of the erinyes, recruiting followers is not very difficult, mostly minor aristocracy and clergy but perhaps including some royalty as well. The cult worships He Who Burns, a deity which is said to assume dragon form (of course, He Who Burns is actually the dragon itself). Aside from the bard, the cult's big draws are lavish, orgiastic rites and a network of mutual support; cult members work to help each other into positions of power. The dragon bankrolls major cult operations out of its hoard, making up the loss in the long run by having its minions divert funds from public coffers.

The dragon seldom ventures out of its lair to do battle. When it does, it sends its erinyes and the bard out to scout out the territory ahead of time and see what it's up against. The agents locate the high-level defenders of the target and report back; the dragon then flies invisibly to their location and dives down on them, whereupon it unleashes fiery death on (hopefully!) surprised and unprepared foes. Having dispatched those likely to cause it trouble, it then lays waste to everything else at its leisure. Its frightful presence and DR 15/magic make it essentially immune to low-level archers--the handful of archers with magic bows will quickly draw the beast's attention and be incinerated. Note that the bard will be riding the dragon under invisibility, and dropping cure critical wounds on it as needed.

Naturally, the bard and the other cult leaders make the most of each such incident, playing up the reputation of He Who Burns.