Dragon intrigue without magic possible?

[Dausuul]

There already was. It was called Council of Wyrmms. The big difference was, all the land was ruled by dragons, and the kingdoms weren't incredibly populated so that the dragons had vassals and servants, but nothing that was as large and as complete as a full kingdom.

Different dragon types warred over their prefered terrain, and they would enslave and/or liberate the vassal populace (depending on whether chromatic was taking over for gem or metalic or vice-versa). The adventure given in the setting (the setting was designed so that the PCs were dragon) was that the PCs were part of the Council of Wyrms, so they were raised by the council, not typical members of their species, and so had none of the prejuidices against others (if one PC wanted to be a Silver, and another a Red, it was possible).

Of course, there were horrible power-level difference between the speices that never quite worked out: to "level up," the dragon needed to both go through a certain age and aquire a certain amount of treasure. While a Gold dragon (strongest) needed a lot more treasure in the hoard to level up compared to a crystal dragon (weakest), they both needed to be the same age to do so (the idea was dragons absorbed power from their horde and formed a magical connection to thier treasure by sleeping on it). So, while the crystal dragon needed like 1/4 of the gold dragon's wealth, they both needed to be the same age.

Anyway, I always liked the idea of the setting and have had benevolent dragons rule kingdoms before in campaign settings...

Oh, I wasn't thinking of anything like the Council of Wyrms. I was thinking about one dragon, one supreme god-dragon ruling over a mighty empire, crushing all rivals both human and draconic beneath his clawed heel. And he wasn't gonna be particularly benevolent either.

Actually, this setting would have a lot more in common with Dark Sun than with Council of Wyrms. Funny, that.

 

[jaer]

Oh, I wasn't thinking of anything like the Council of Wyrms. I was thinking about one dragon, one supreme god-dragon ruling over a mighty empire, crushing all rivals both human and draconic beneath his clawed heel. And he wasn't gonna be particularly benevolent either.

Actually, this setting would have a lot more in common with Dark Sun than with Council of Wyrms. Funny, that.

Gotcha. Yeah, I have always like the idea of the Dragon-led Empire. The idea that all lands (even if they are just islands) being ruled by dragons (ala Council of Wyrms) is a little too much for me. I just can't imagine that many dragons carring enough about little, short-lived fleshings enough to create such a rule.

But having one with the mind to do so and be a conquring, vicious monster of a ruler, a Gangis Khan or Alexander the Great but in ancient dragon form and attacking with military cunnning and tactics never concieved by humans (after all, simply being able to fly since birth would give a creature a certain outlook on tactics no human would develope) would make for a great backstory to a campaign setting.

 

[Set]

Much too sketchy for my taste. Please detail it more. Start with explaining how the dragon knows that the wizard showed up within a day or two.

As the counter-argument appears to be that a being smarter than any philosopher-king we've ever had in the real world, more charismatic than any idealogue we've ever had in the real world, more physically powerful than any banana republic strongman we've ever had in the real world and richer than some small kingdoms can't convince a 2nd level Commoner that accepting a job offer to become a power player in the local area isn't worth dying in a futile attempt to kill the dragon with his pitchfork and torch, I think the argument pretty much stands without need of insane levels of further exemplification.

If a dragon can't work an intrigue in the game world, then nobody can. No human fighter, no priestly leader, no evil wizard, no scheming vampire. Every single leader in the history of that world would have died within days due to the scheming of every single person he tried to lead, as, apparently, *every single one of them* refuses to be less than the boss. Every vice-president or vizier to a king or noble heir would have been in a mad rush to assassinate their ruler, since it's apparently too hard a pill to swallow to be the second-richest and second-most-powerful person in the kingdom.

 

[Derren]

As the counter-argument appears to be that a being smarter than any philosopher-king we've ever had in the real world, more charismatic than any idealogue we've ever had in the real world, more physically powerful than any banana republic strongman we've ever had in the real world and richer than some small kingdoms .

That might be true for the really old dragons, but the "medium age" dragons are not smarter, more powerful or richer than a high level wizard. And with those high level NPCs the dragon has to compete.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

That might be true for the really old dragons, but the "medium age" dragons are not smarter, more powerful or richer than a high level wizard. And with those high level NPCs the dragon has to compete.

Yet there are plenty of low-level wizards, and fighters, rogues, monks and so on. Do you believe none of them can engage in meaningful intrigues, wield influence, rule towns and kingdoms, deal with enemies gunning for their head, and so on? Because all the arguments you present against non-spellcasting dragons being able to do anything apply to them, and usually stronger.

 

[green slime]

Hmmm.... I get the idea that, after some of the excellent, intelligent posts made by many various posters here (some that have gone to quite some length and detail), certain posters are arguing for argument's sake, rather than seeking cool ideas with which to provide an interesting and cool arch-enemy for a band of intrepid (and foolish) adventurers.

But there have been some truly inspirational posts along the way!

 

[Derren]

Yet there are plenty of low-level wizards, and fighters, rogues, monks and so on. Do you believe none of them can engage in meaningful intrigues, wield influence, rule towns and kingdoms, deal with enemies gunning for their head, and so on? Because all the arguments you present against non-spellcasting dragons being able to do anything apply to them, and usually stronger.

Yes, I think that low level wizards (which sometimes can also match the intelligence of adult dragons) and fighters etc. which don't find a way to have access to a lot of magic have no chance in higher politics. The difference is that humans have an easier time to get this magic than traditional solitary dragons.

 

[green slime]

Yes, I think that low level wizards (which sometimes can also match the intelligence of adult dragons) and fighters etc. which don't find a way to have access to a lot of magic have no chance in higher politics. The difference is that humans have an easier time to get this magic than traditional solitary dragons.

Que?

As in a High Charisma score, with skill ranks in Diplomacy, Bluff, & Intimidate, as well as careful selection of feats renders the low wizard and/or fighter still useless in Diplomacy?

I'd disagree with that assumption. While surely an unusual character, and still likely overshadowed by a politically-inspired bard, there is nothing preventing the creation of such a character.

There are plenty of splatbooks with feats granting extra skill points, expanding class skill selection.

 

[Derren]

Que?

As in a High Charisma score, with skill ranks in Diplomacy, Bluff, & Intimidate, as well as careful selection of feats renders the low wizard and/or fighter still useless in Diplomacy?

I'd disagree with that assumption. While surely an unusual character, and still likely overshadowed by a politically-inspired bard, there is nothing preventing the creation of such a character.

There are plenty of splatbooks with feats granting extra skill points, expanding class skill selection.

A high charisma makes a good messenger or diplomat, but there is more than just being able to sweet talk very well to be a politician. Without a lot of magic the others can outmaneuver or "dig out your dirt" without you being able to do anything about it. Or in the worst case they can assassinate you easily when you do not have magical protections (and that doesn't mean things like rings of protections).

Speaking of charisma, considering that a dragon has to use minions most of the time its charisma doesn't really matter as it is never used. The charisma of the minion matters. Of course, a high charisma helps in aquiring minions with higher charisma but there is still a gap.

 

[green slime]

A high charisma makes a good messenger or diplomat, but there is more than just being able to sweet talk very well to be a politician. Without a lot of magic the others can outmaneuver or "dig out your dirt" without you being able to do anything about it. Or in the worst case they can assassinate you easily when you do not have magical protections (and that doesn't mean things like rings of protections).

Speaking of charisma, considering that a dragon has to use minions most of the time its charisma doesn't really matter as it is never used. The charisma of the minion matters. Of course, a high charisma helps in aquiring minions with higher charisma but there is still a gap.

I still think you are arguing for the sake of arguing, rather than seeing valid points that have been made.

You can't assume that "there is a lot of magic" for anyone, whether politican or not. And you completely ignore the fact that no amount of magic will weigh very heavy against a weight of tradition, attitudes, and culture. No part of a society stands alone unaffected by other parts, regardless of how much we might like to sort things into various compartments. Magic is but one tool. And a rather dangerous and capricious tool at that.

Likewise, no individual is an island, unaffected by the society in which he lives. Although the manner in which you see many people play their characters, you might assume otherwise.