Dragon intrigue without magic possible?

[Hussar]

A cr 15 dragon is not strong enough to attack a larger city or even influence a whole kingdom with pure strength alone. So yes, the dragon does need intrigue.

You forget that any D&D city has, in addition to hundreds of archers, many mid to high level NPCs. I don't have the city generation rules memorized but such a city does have the chance to have several level 15 NPCs.. Technically those NPCs are enough to seriously threaten the dragon. Add in all other classed NPCs and the dragon has no chance.
And even if the dragon destroys the city, it will be killed by the retaliation of the army or adventurers.


Even attacking at night doesn't change that much thanks to magic. And I do consider D&D to be a high magic world because magic is everywhere and everyone of some status has access to it.

No, you are mistaken. Please reread your DMG. A Metropolis has a chance of having 3 15th level NPC's of any given class AT BEST. Anything smaller than a Large City has ZERO chance of having even ONE NPC of that level. Even a Large City likely won't have any NPC's of 15th level or higher.

Note, that each NPC below the highest is only half the level of the next guy up the chain. So, if you have 1 15th level mage, the next highest NPCs are 2 7th levels. And so on.

Your demographics are not supported by RAW. Your entire argument hinges on the idea that high level characters are widespread and commonplace, which is, again, not supported by RAW. Without those high level characters, a CR 15 creature is about the biggest thing around. Most kingdoms will not have a metropolis sized city. Most kingdoms would only have a single Large City.

Granted, the CR 15 dragon likely couldn't dominate Rome, but, it'd do a pretty good job on any other state.

 

[Set]

A high charisma makes a good messenger or diplomat, but there is more than just being able to sweet talk very well to be a politician. Without a lot of magic the others can outmaneuver or "dig out your dirt" without you being able to do anything about it. Or in the worst case they can assassinate you easily when you do not have magical protections (and that doesn't mean things like rings of protections).

In this case, using your base assumption that *nobody* in a fantasy world could attain any sort of political power without access to high-level magic, then no, a dragon without access to high-level magic would be equally unable to attain any sort of political power in such a narrowly-defined setting.

I was arguing from the position of a setting like Greyhawk, the Forgotten Realms or Eberron, where Fighters, Rogues and even NPC Aristocrats can and do serve as rulers of most city-states and nations, alongside other nations that are indeed ruled by a high-level spellcaster of some sort. As your campaign setting is based more on a land such as Thay, where only high-level spellcasters are allowed to rule, then a dragon who is not a high-level spellcaster will indeed be disadvantaged.

Of course, the lack of *innate* spellcasting ability in no way prevents a dragon from learning class levels of Sorcerer or Wizard, and most dragons will end up far smarter and / or charismatic than a Sorcerer or Wizard who started as a human or elf, making the dragon who wants to be a wizard and join the ruling caste somewhat superior to the human who wants to be a wizard and join the ruling caste, even leaving aside all of the other advantages that a dragon possesses over higher attribute scores.

 

[EvilMountainDew]

Round of Applause for jaer.

 

[Tewligan]

Yes, I think that low level wizards (which sometimes can also match the intelligence of adult dragons) and fighters etc. which don't find a way to have access to a lot of magic have no chance in higher politics. The difference is that humans have an easier time to get this magic than traditional solitary dragons.

I think the problem is that your idea of how a fantasy world should work is different from how the rules or anyone else interprets it. You seem to be defaulting to a world in which no one can get ahead in politics unless they do it with a lot of magic, cities are jam-packed with high-level characters, no one can ever trust their underlings, and people are immediately running off to hire a band of adventurers to assassinate whoever is in power. Taking all of your unlikely caveats into consideration, I guess a non-magic using dragon couldn't become a powerful leader - nor could most kings or other political leaders that appear in most fantasy settings. In a more conventional setting, though, a magic-less dragon could very easily become a power, for all the reasons that others have given.

 

[Dausuul]

Okay, let's go back to the original challenge for a moment. I submit that my dragon and his cult have completed this challenge.

* The dragon does not have innate magic or spell like abilities. Just his claws and breath weapon. Eventual minions are allowed to use magic.

Check.

* The dragon is allowed to use magic items (not custom made), but the amount of magic items should be kept to a minimum (PC loot).

The only magic item my dragon has is a ring of invisibility, which is well within the means of a CR 23 monster with triple normal treasure.

* Assume that dragons in this world have no inherent alignment.

Check.

* The dragon must be an antagonist for good aligned PCs.

Most certainly.

* The target is a "normal" human kingdom with nobles etc.

Check.

* Either use a Adult, Old or Ancient red dragon (Say in your post which one. The older the dragon the more extensive its intrigue must be).

Ancient red.

* The dragon should at least be able to influence the ruler of a big city. Leaders of powerful guilds, nobles or even kings is preferred (and for the ancient dragon required).

Some of these people are in the cult. For those who aren't, the dragon's bard minion can influence these people directly via Diplomacy and Bluff. The dragon can also manipulate events to force the actions of human leaders--e.g., using cultists in the Imperial bureaucracy to delay food shipments into the capital, thus inciting food riots and compelling the Emperor to recall some of his soldiers to restore order.

* The Dragon is the BBEG, not the minions. So the minions should not be collectively be much more powerful than the dragon. (If the minions can put together a 4 man adventurer party which can kill the dragon I consider this as too powerful).

A kobold tribe; a 12th-level sorceror who's devoted most of his slots to things like greater anticipate teleportation, teleport, and lesser planar binding; five erinyes devils; and an 18th-level bard; against an ancient red? The dragon would mop the floor with them.

* The dragon has enemies. Expect adventurers to attack from time to time. Explain how the dragon defends itself (also include tactics like Scry&Fry or bypassing the dragons defenses and CdGing the sleeping dragon)

Scry-and-fry and coup de graces are dealt with. Unless the adventurers are tough enough to overcome an ancient red in combat, the dragon is fine.

* !Important to me! The dragon does not live in a void. Explain where eventual minions live and where they get their food and resources from. Explain how the dragon keeps contact with his agents and people he blackmails. When the dragon uses charged magic items explain where he gets new ones.

The kobolds hunt small animals around the dragon's lair. The erinyes act as messengers between the dragon and the high-ranking cult members, especially the bard, who lives on money from the cult. The cult provides a steady inflow of gold, which allows the dragon to make occasional expenditures out of its hoard. The kobold sorceror teleports the bard around when needed, and retrieves the cult's deposits to the First Bank of Dragon. The dragon does not generally use charged magic items.

* The world is not static. Other political NPCs and maybe even the PCs have also political ambitions. Explain how the dragon can stay ahead of them (especially when those (N)PCs use magic for communication etc.)

The dragon stays ahead the same way any backstage manipulator does, by outthinking his foes and outmaneuvering them. While he does have the drawback of not being personally "on the scene," he compensates by having the combat prowess of a dragon at his beck and call. This enables him to do on a small scale what the Shadows did with the Centauri on Babylon 5...

Bard: "You know that rival family of yours?"
Noble: "Yeah."
Bard: "Suppose they didn't have those iron mines in Westmark. That would make things much easier for your trade factors, wouldn't it?"
Noble: "I suppose it would. But how--"
Bard (with a mysterious smile): "I'll see that it's taken care of. Let me know if you find any other trifling matters vexing you. Who knows, I might be able to assist you with those, too."

Sometime that night, the iron mines are obliterated, leaving no survivors... and no corpses. (The dragon, mindful of spells like speak with dead, had the erinyes haul the bodies out so he could eat them.)

 

[Set]

While he does have the drawback of not being personally "on the scene," he compensates by having the combat prowess of a dragon at his beck and call. This enables him to do on a small scale what the Shadows did with the Centauri on Babylon 5...

Love that comparison.

 

[green slime]

Forget bards, fighters, wizards and nobles. The dragon charms/intimidates/bluffs/cajoles/supports/fosters a stockbroker and his descendants. After a thousand years, he owns the entire planet, if not the entire crystal sphere.

 

[jaer]

Round of Applause for jaer.

Thanks!

This thread is full of good ideas, though, which could easily make for a campaign or two (or an entire campaign setting!). It was a fun exercise, I must admit.

 

[NealTS]

This thread is full of good ideas, though, which could easily make for a campaign or two (or an entire campaign setting!). It was a fun exercise, I must admit.

My thoughts exactly. Jaer's Ard Conspiracy, Dausuul's Cult of the Wyrm and my Aztec-flavored Empire of the Dragon (which I simply have to expand someday) are all fantastic ideas that likely wouldn't have surfaced (or at least been expounded upon as much as they were) without Derren's... conviction.

 

[Set]

My thoughts exactly. Jaer's Ard Conspiracy, Dausuul's Cult of the Wyrm and my Aztec-flavored Empire of the Dragon (which I simply have to expand someday) are all fantastic ideas that likely wouldn't have surfaced (or at least been expounded upon as much as they were) without Derren's... conviction.

Monte Cook wrote that one of his favorite sources of inspiration is the words, 'can't be done.'

That's what prompted him to create a Rage Mage PrC, the words under Rage saying that spellcasting was impossible while Raging. So he said, 'Oh yeah?'