Dragon Skills

[Melatuis]

I am working on converting dragons to Pathfinder.

I have 3 kinds of dragons: dragon (landragons etc), True Dragons (standard Gold, White etc), and Epic Dragons.

Dragons that do not have wings and do no have caster levels are not true dragons (comments welcome)

Here is my take on how dragon skills should work.

Dragon Skills: All dragons have 6+Int modifier, minimum 1, skill points per hit die. All dragons have Listen, Search, and Spot as class skills. The number of additional skills all dragons have is equal to their age category plus their Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). All dragons can pick any no-training-required skill as a class skill.

True and Epic Dragons gain Knowledge (local) and Knowledge (nature) as class skills. They can pick any no-training-required skill and any Knowledge skill as a class skill. When they gain caster levels they also gain Knowledge (arcane) and Knowledge (religion) as class skills.

Each dragon has other class skills as well, as noted in the variety descriptions.

 

[freyar]

Are the "no-training" skills the same as the ones all true dragons get as class skills in 3.5?

Edit: And aren't Listen and Spot = Perception in PRPG? Or has that changed back?

 

[Kerrick]

I have 3 kinds of dragons: dragon (landragons etc), True Dragons (standard Gold, White etc), and Epic Dragons.

Dragons that do not have wings and do no have caster levels are not true dragons (comments welcome)

That's cool. Do they still have the Dragon type, though? What would distinguish a "true" dragon from any other Dragon creature?

Dragon Skills: All dragons have 6+Int modifier, minimum 1, skill points per hit die. All dragons have Listen, Search, and Spot as class skills.

Doesn't PF roll all of those into Perception?

The number of additional skills all dragons have is equal to their age category plus their Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). All dragons can pick any no-training-required skill as a class skill.

Interesting, but with the cut-down skill list PF has, you're going to have a hard time coming up with that many skills. 6 + Int is a lot on its own, trust me. I'd have a base skill set for all dragons, then add a couple extra for each dragon type - maybe Craft for the more powerful/intelligent ones, Survival for the nature-type dragons like green and brass, etc.

 

[Melatuis]

Thank you for catching the Listen, Search, and Spot, it is now all perception.

I was trying to give a bigger variation within dragon type.

I will go through the dragon write up from d20SRP and make my changes to differentiate Dragon, True Dragon, and Epic Dragons.

Fighters, Sorcerers, and Wizards all have 2+Int modifier, so do dragons now.

Skills: All dragons have 2+Int modifier, minimum 1, skill points per hit die. All dragons have Perception as a class skill. The number of additional skills all dragons have is equal to their age category plus their Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) [this would give a White Dragon Wyrmling 2 class skills {+1AC-2 int mod+1 bonus skill}, as a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon would have 29 class skills {+12 AC+10 Int Mod+7 bonus skills}]. All dragons can pick any untraind-yes skill as a class skill.

True and Epic Dragons gain Fly, Knowledge (local) and Knowledge (nature) as class skills. They can pick any untraind-yes skill, any Knowledge skill, and any sorcerer class skills as a class skill. When they gain caster levels they also gain Knowledge (arcane), Knowledge (religion), and Use Magic Device as class skills.

Each dragon has other class skills as well, as noted in the variety descriptions.)

 

[Kerrick]

Skills: All dragons have 2+Int modifier, minimum 1, skill points per hit die. All dragons have Perception as a class skill. The number of additional skills all dragons have is equal to their age category plus their Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) [this would give a White Dragon Wyrmling 2 class skills {+1AC-2 int mod+1 bonus skill}, as a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon would have 29 class skills {+12 AC+10 Int Mod+7 bonus skills}]. All dragons can pick any untraind-yes skill as a class skill.

That's still a lot of skills - 29 pretty well covers the entire list (there are something like 27 skills in PF, aren't there?). You're also counting the Int bonus twice: once for 2 + Int, and once for additional skills - in PF, since skill points are 1:1, the number of skills equals 2 + Int modifier already.

True and Epic Dragons gain Fly, Knowledge (local) and Knowledge (nature) as class skills. They can pick any untraind-yes skill, any Knowledge skill, and any sorcerer class skills as a class skill. When they gain caster levels they also gain Knowledge (arcane), Knowledge (religion), and Use Magic Device as class skills.

Instead of telling us what skills they CAN take, why not just tell us which ones they CAN'T? Then we don't have to go through checking for "Is this trained or not?" and looking over the sorcerer list. By my count, the only skills they're prohibited are Decipher Script*, Disable Device, Handle Animal, Profession, Sleight of Hand, and Acrobatics.

*Although this makes little sense for creatures as smart and magically inclined as dragons.

 

[Melatuis]

Reply 1

True Dragons
The known varieties of true dragons (as opposed to other creatures that have the dragon type) fall into two broad categories: chromatic and metallic. The chromatic dragons are black, blue, green, red, and white; they are all evil and extremely fierce. The metallic dragons are brass, bronze, copper, gold, and silver; they are all good, usually noble, and highly respected by the wise.

True Dragon Skills: All dragons have skill points equal to (6+ Int Modifier, minimum 1) x HD + age category). Most dragons purchase the following skills at the maximum ranks possible: Fly and Perception. The remaining skill points are generally spent on Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device at a cost of 1 skill point per rank. All these skills are considered class skills for dragons. (Each dragon has other class skills as well, as noted in the variety descriptions.)

From reading the above - I say that:
True Dragons have skill points are equal to 6+ Int Modifier (minimum 1)+ age category per HD. Fly and Perception are considered trained class skills. Most True Dragons purchase Fly and Perception and any remaining skill points are generally spent on Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device. All these skills are considered trained skills for dragons. (Each dragon has other trained skills as well, as noted in the variety descriptions.)

Decipher Script was not given. Linguistics now covers Decipher Script, Forgery, and Speak Languages. Linguistics is a Untrained-No. (Decipher Script and Speak Languages are also Untrained-No.) Should Linguistics be added as a True Dragons skill?

I did not make any other skills trained class skills. Or should I make them all trained class skills? (Trained class skills get the +3, trained skills do not but you con add points to them)

Gold Dragon, Great Wyrm (41 HD, Int 32) Skill Points for HD = 29 points (6+11+12) - yes that’s a lot of points when there is only 32 skills that they can be put in (33 if Linguistics is included).

I like very powerful dragons. I feel that dragons should be the toughest creatures encountered for their CR on any plane they are on.

 

[Melatuis]

Reply 2


True Dragons have skill points are equal to 6+ Int Modifier (minimum 1)+ age category per HD. Fly and Perception are considered trained class skills. Most True Dragons purchase Fly and Perception and any remaining skill points can be spent on any skill except Disable Device, Handle Animal, and Sleight of Hand. All allowed skills are considered trained skills for dragons. (Each dragon has other trained class skills, as noted in the variety descriptions.)

Trained class skills get the +3, trained skills do not but you can add points to them.

Gold Dragon, Great Wyrm (41 HD, Int 32) Skill Points for HD = 29 points (6+11+12) - yes that’s a lot of points when there is only 32 skills that they can be put in (33 if Linguistics is included).

This were the Gold Dragon info belongs. I like this one.

 

[Kerrick]

From reading the above - I say that:
True Dragons have skill points are equal to 6+ Int Modifier (minimum 1)+ age category per HD. Fly and Perception are considered trained class skills. Most True Dragons purchase Fly and Perception and any remaining skill points are generally spent on Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device. All these skills are considered trained skills for dragons. (Each dragon has other trained skills as well, as noted in the variety descriptions.)

I'm assuming this is the one you want - you should delete the other one to avoid confusion.

Decipher Script was not given. Linguistics now covers Decipher Script, Forgery, and Speak Languages. Linguistics is a Untrained-No. (Decipher Script and Speak Languages are also Untrained-No.) Should Linguistics be added as a True Dragons skill?

Oh, I forgot about that. It probably should, yeah.

I did not make any other skills trained class skills. Or should I make them all trained class skills? (Trained class skills get the +3, trained skills do not but you con add points to them)

Generally speaking, any skill a monster has is a trained (class) skill and thus gains the +3 bonus.

I like very powerful dragons. I feel that dragons should be the toughest creatures encountered for their CR on any plane they are on.

Agreed.

True Dragons[/B] have skill points are equal to 6+ Int Modifier (minimum 1)+ age category per HD.

If I'm reading this correctly, that means the gold dragon from the example below has 29 * 41 skill points, or 29 skills at +41 each. That's a bit much, IMO. I would drop it to one new skill per two (or maybe even three) age categories - our gold dragon would thus have 6 + 11 + 6 = 23 skills, which is still a bit much; at 1/3 AC, it would be 6 + 11 + 4 = 21 - much more reasonable. It also gives them a little "breathing room" to pick and choose skills, instead of having to shoehorn every one on the list into their statblock. Do dragons really need Escape Artist? They're so large and strong they can break free of just about anything short of adamantine chains.

 

[Melatuis]

How is this?

There are 3 Kinds of dragons, Dragon, True Dragon, and Epic Dragon.

Dragons are:
Dragonets
Drakes
Landragons
Linnorms
And any dragon that does not have 12 age categories (Dragon Turtle).

True Dragons are:
Chromatic Dragons
Ferrous Dragons
Gem Dragons
Metallic Dragons
And a few dragons that do not fit into the above categories (Pink, ect)

Epic Dragons are:
Force Dragon
Prismatic Dragon
(Epic dragons share all the combat characteristics of True Dragons. Even wyrmling epic dragons are Huge, however, and are capable of making tail sweep and crush attacks.)


Dragons have skill points equal to 6+ Int Modifier (minimum 1) HD. Fly (if they have it) and Perception are trained class skills. Most dragons purchase the following skills at the maximum ranks possible: Fly (if they have it) and Perception. The remaining skill points are generally spent on Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device at a cost of 1 skill point per rank. All these skills are considered trained skills for Dragons. (Each dragon has other trained skills, as noted in the variety descriptions.)

True and Epic Dragons have skill points equal to 6+ Int Modifier (minimum 1)+ age category per HD. Fly and Perception are considered trained class skills. Most True Dragons purchase the following skills at the maximum ranks possible: Fly and Perception. The remaining skill points can be spent on any skill except Disable Device, Handle Animal, and Sleight of Hand. All these skills are considered trained skills for dragons. (Each dragon has other trained class skills, as noted in the variety descriptions.)

I have given all the dragons very few trained class skills, to cut down on their over powering skill points at higher HD.

Only True and Epic Dragons gain trained class skills.

Does this make any sense?