Dragon Tactics - How smart and original can you be?

[S'mon]

I don't mind the idea that dragons are cunning - it's the ones casting buffs and flying around with staves in their claws that make me roll my eyes.

Yes, me too on both counts. The last dragonfight I ran ("An Icy Heart"), the writer had the dragon decked out with _boots_ (fer chrissakes!) as well as cloak, bracers rings etc etc... *sigh* - I removed the treasure from the dragon & added it to its treasure pile, which made it a bit easy but a lot less cheasy. I guess I like my dragons 1e style (but w better mechanics). One thing I've done is remove spellcasting from most dragons and give them additional SR equal to 1+1/highest spell level they could otherwise cast. This should prevent both the tendency for dragons to be easily defeated by spell effects like polymorph and the tendency for them to be unhittable by the PC fighters due to spell buffs (Mage Armour etc).

 

[sfedi]

A CR 14 dragon won't sit cowering in its heavily fortified lair, because it has never run into anything in the world that could challenge it for the past few centuries. Those 15th-level PCs who come knocking? The dragon might assume they're just like every other group it's faced: the 100+ groups of 4th-10th level chumps who gave it its gold hoard in the first place.

I can't beleive this scenario.
A Dragon ASSUMES that every human bold enough to come ot it is a weakling?
And those are the "lords of might"?
With such a weak strategy?
Any creature who has that mindset couldn't make it that far.

Of course, as a younger Dragon, maybe he wasn't that cocky, but havne't thisdragon had enough experience as to know that there are some humans who could kick his a$$ ? (i.e. 20th level)

I find it hard to believe that scenario.

 

[S'mon]

Of course, as a younger Dragon, maybe he wasn't that cocky, but havne't thisdragon had enough experience as to know that there are some humans who could kick his a$$ ? (i.e. 20th level)

To a large extent that depends on level distribution in the setting - IMC there aren't really bands of 20th level NPCs - 20th-level NPCs are rare enough that if they exist at all it's as a gathering of the world's greatest heroes brought together for a specific task (which might be to destroy the dragon that's laying waste to civilisation). I also assume dragons breed fairly fast and most _do_ die before reaching advanced age, probably more often killed by rival dragons or giants than by humans, though.

 

[Endur]

Here is an example CR 13 Dragon. This Dragon can probably take any 20th level character in a 1 on 1 fight. So, short of an epic character or a deity, this Dragon is not going to be afraid of any single PC. The Dragon would know, though, that a group can be more dangerous than an individual enemy. On the other hand, groups of enemies is why the Dragon has a breath weapon.

young adult red dragon; CR 13; Huge dragon (fire); HD 19d12+95 (218 hp); Init +4; Spd 40 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor); AC 26, touch 8, flat-footed 26; BAB +19; Grapple +37; Atk +27 melee (2d8+10, bite) or +27 melee (2d8+15, crush); Full Atk +27 melee (2d8+10, bite) and +25 melee (2d6+5, 2 claws) and +25 melee (1d8+5, 2 wings) and +25 melee (2d6+15, tail slap); or +27 melee (2d8+15, crush); SA Breath weapon, crush, frightful presence, spells; SQ Blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 120 ft., DR 5/magic, immunity to fire, sleep, and paralysis, locate object, keen senses, SR 19, vulnerability to cold; Space/Reach 15/10 (15 with bite); AL CE; SV Fort +16, Ref +11, Will +13; Str 31, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14.
Skills and Feats: Bluff +21, Concentration +24, Diplomacy +23, Intimidate +4, Jump +35, Knowledge (religion) +21, Listen +21, Search +21, Spellcraft +13, Spot +21; Ability Focus (breath weapon), Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Power Attack, Wingover.
Breath Weapon (Su): 50 ft. cone of fire, 10d10 points of fire damage, Ref save DC 26 half.
Frightful Presence (Ex): 150 ft. range; creatures must succeed at a Will save (DC 21) or become panicked for 4d6 rounds (if 4 or less HD) or become shaken for 4d6 rounds (5 HD or more).
Crush (Ex): This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents). A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 24) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape. Crush attack deals 2d8+15 points of damage.
Keen Senses (Ex): Sees four times as well a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. also has darkvision out to 120 ft.
Locate Object (Sp): 5/day (as Sor5).
Spells Known (6/7/5; base DC = 12 + spell level): 0--arcane mark, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand, open/close, read magic; 1--alarm, cure light wounds, mage armor, true strike; 2--cure moderate wounds, invisibility

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I can't beleive this scenario.
A Dragon ASSUMES that every human bold enough to come ot it is a weakling?

I'm suggesting that centuries of experience has shown the dragon that everything that has been bold enough to come after it is a weakling... at least compared to it. It's going to be cocky because it has always won fairly easily and it thinks it always will win.
Maybe once or twice, the greatest heroes of the kingdom banded together to slay it - a bunch of 12th-level PC-classed NPCs, classified as "legendary" according to the spell Legend Lore - and while they were something of a challenge, it still beat them in a straight-up fight. (If you think 12th-level NPCs are common, then maybe a dragon would start getting really cocky around CR 19 instead)

I clearly prefer games where PCs are exceptional. In such a world, the dragon will be cocky. Again, think Smaug. If high-level NPCs are common (and NPCs can only get to high level by consistently encountering challenges they can overcome), then the dragons would quite likely be more cowardly.

 

[Victim]

My problem with the whole "Dragons as super geniuses" thing is that most of them aren't. PC spellcasters of comparable level to the dragon's CR will generally have superior mental stats. Look at the CR 13 dragon above. It's effectively a bright human; as smart as a fighter going Expertise/Imp Trip. There are plenty of other monsters with comparable mentals at this CR and below. No one flips out about disposable demons or clerics.

 

[Sarellion]

IMC dragons are hailing from a different plane and were content t fly around and mess with their subjects. After the PCs brought back Mahallon, god-king of dragons, some decided to move to the prime material plane.

These are dragon with no actual experience in fighting humans , so at the moment their tactics are rather clumsy. On the other hand are the dragon who already live on the prime and they know that they are not necessarily the biggest fish.

So dragon tactics depend on background. Dragons who are newcomers are more reckless and know little of possible dangers. Experienced prime dragons seize up their objective first and then decide on a course of action or use one of their established strategies. Younger dragons from remote areas are prone to reckless behaviuor and think they can bully around every humanoid. Most of them quickly see the error of their ways as some of the bigger fishes come out to play.

 

[Evilhalfling]

So what would be good tactics for a dragon who must compete with other dragons?
that can perhaps be turned against adventures as well -
Protective spells would be good as dragons of near equal might, cave ins, elemental traps.
could all by turned against dragons or men.

 

[Davelozzi]

A red dragon lives inside a volcano. The party must traverse an open cavern filled with lava by means of 5ft. stepping stones that only allow enough room for each party member to go in single file. Besides the obvious Balance checks that have to be employed, the dragon waits in the magma for the last character to pass and then catches him by surprise from behind only to vanish in the magma again. Assuming the party members fail their Spot checks, they will believe the character fell into the magma.

Only if the dragon is completely silent, and the victim doesn't cry out as he's being attacked by it.

 

[shilsen]

Here is an example CR 13 Dragon. This Dragon can probably take any 20th level character in a 1 on 1 fight. So, short of an epic character or a deity, this Dragon is not going to be afraid of any single PC. The Dragon would know, though, that a group can be more dangerous than an individual enemy. On the other hand, groups of enemies is why the Dragon has a breath weapon.

You're kidding, right? A 13th lvl spellcaster has an excellent chance of getting past its SR and will have something like a DC 24 on his highest lvl spells, so the dragon has only a 50% chance of saving on its Will save. And that's just one enemy. If the dragon goes up against a party of four 13th lvl characters and doesn't use very intelligent tactics and its resources, it is toast. My money's on the single 20th lvl PC.

 

[Victim]

Another example:

A red dragon lives inside a volcano. The party must traverse an open cavern filled with lava by means of 5ft. stepping stones that only allow enough room for each party member to go in single file. Besides the obvious Balance checks that have to be employed, the dragon waits in the magma for the last character to pass and then catches him by surprise from behind only to vanish in the magma again. Assuming the party members fail their Spot checks, they will believe the character fell into the magma. And so it goes on from there.

PCs fly.

 

[Ghostwind]

PCs fly.

And they also carry dragonslayer swords and a multitude of other things. My point to this thread isn't that PCs are better than dragons. I want to hear stories of dragons that have been crafty, sneaky, and wily in the way they approach their foes (aka PCs). Nearly everyone has tales of how a dragon literally beat the crap out of them. These are what I am looking for. Things that make you go, "Damn, that was a smart move."

 

[Patman21967]

I had a fun time beating the crap out of high level party, by having the Dragon cast anti-magic shell, and whooping their asses...They almost had a spasm when all thier magic items stopped working and were face to face with a big 'ol Red. They ran screaming like the Nancy Boys they really are...Take away magic items, and it really brings a party back to Earth

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I had a fun time beating the crap out of high level party, by having the Dragon cast anti-magic shell, and whooping their asses...They almost had a spasm when all thier magic items stopped working and were face to face with a big 'ol Red. They ran screaming like the Nancy Boys they really are...Take away magic items, and it really brings a party back to Earth

That's a good idea... makes the fight be nice and proper, with the knight using a lance or a sword or something and the dragon just using natural attacks.
However, IIRC, only Epic dragons (CR 21+) have access to 6th-level spells - and a party of that level will have access to a number of tricks even in the face of Anti-Magic Shell. Should be an interesting combat.
If the dragon wasn't Epic, well, NPC or monsters with scrolls of spells higher level than they can cast will be vastly overpowered for their CR; the 10th-level cleric with just a small portion of his wealth invested in a CL15 Blasphemy scroll is a threat far greater than CR 10.

 

[Sejs]

White dragon of sufficient size in its natural terrain, and not supprised in its lair:

Wait until party is in an open stretch. Fly by, snatch a single party member (ideally one in some sort of bulky armor), and fly off. Fly over open (arctic) water and let 'em drop. Drop down, blow some breath weapon on a patch of water to make yourself a handy little ice perch. Wait for your victim to drown or freeze to death. Assist in their shuffling off this mortal coil if needed. Then just break out the swim speed and immunity to cold, dive in and retrieve the corpse for stripping and snacking.

Repeat as necessary.

 

[iwatt]

I can't beleive this scenario.
A Dragon ASSUMES that every human bold enough to come ot it is a weakling?
And those are the "lords of might"?
With such a weak strategy?
Any creature who has that mindset couldn't make it that far.

Of course, as a younger Dragon, maybe he wasn't that cocky, but havne't thisdragon had enough experience as to know that there are some humans who could kick his a$$ ? (i.e. 20th level)

I find it hard to believe that scenario.

But Dragons ARE superior to anything they run into. Except equal level parties with top-notch dragon research facilities and the ability to execute text-book perfect Scry-buff-teleport commando raids.

The fatc is, ther'e always a bigger gun, or a faster draw out there. But if you're good enough (top of the food chain and all that), you'll generally not run into one of them. And when you do, you don't get to learn about it.

Also, why would a Dragon human-proof his lair? in their eyes we're nothing but vermin. I can see them dragon-proofing and Giant-proofing though.

You're kidding, right? A 13th lvl spellcaster has an excellent chance of getting past its SR and will have something like a DC 24 on his highest lvl spells, so the dragon has only a 50% chance of saving on its Will save. And that's just one enemy. If the dragon goes up against a party of four 13th lvl characters and doesn't use very intelligent tactics and its resources, it is toast. My money's on the single 20th lvl PC.

This is of course if the wiard is well prepared and not surprised. Anyhow, of the traditional DnD team (Wizard/Rogue/Cleric/Fighter) my guess is the wizard is the one with the best shot at surviving the Dragon (through contingency). A 50% shot of taking him down with one spell means a 50% chance of being targeted by all of the dragons attacks in one round as well. But a 20'th Level fighter or rogue will not stand a chance. An appropriately buffed out 20 th level cleric will take him down if the Dragon is stupid enough to give him the 10 rounds necesarry to buff up. But nothing can really stand up to a Cleric who's had time to appropriately buff himself up. And an unbuffed cleric is just so much tasty meat wrapped up in full-plate.

 

[Ziggy]

This is of course if the wiard is well prepared and not surprised. Anyhow, of the traditional DnD team (Wizard/Rogue/Cleric/Fighter) my guess is the wizard is the one with the best shot at surviving the Dragon (through contingency). A 50% shot of taking him down with one spell means a 50% chance of being targeted by all of the dragons attacks in one round as well. But a 20'th Level fighter or rogue will not stand a chance. An appropriately buffed out 20 th level cleric will take him down if the Dragon is stupid enough to give him the 10 rounds necesarry to buff up. But nothing can really stand up to a Cleric who's had time to appropriately buff himself up. And an unbuffed cleric is just so much tasty meat wrapped up in full-plate.

Something tells me you're not used to high level play. A 20th level rogue might have trouble on his own, as the blindsight will make sneak attacks harder, but with the right items (Ring of Blinking etc) that can be overcome. The 20th level fighter will abolutely cream him, he'll have better attack, do more damage and probably have more more hit points as well. Any 20th level fighter worth his salt will also have flying capability and Freedom of Movement, negating the best abilities of the dragon. And the 20th cleric and wizard will just simply destroy him with their DC28+ destruction or Wail of the Banshee.

A party of 13th level character will of course have more problems, that's why his CR is 13 .

.Ziggy

 

[cmanos]

I still think one of the dirtiest tricks you can do is to make that Red Dragon look like a white dragon.

Yeah...every species has albinos

 

[cmanos]

A CR 14 dragon won't sit cowering in its heavily fortified lair, because it has never run into anything in the world that could challenge it for the past few centuries. Those 15th-level PCs who come knocking? The dragon might assume they're just like every other group it's faced: the 100+ groups of 4th-10th level chumps who gave it its gold hoard in the first place.

Two dragons talking over a decanter of elves blood.

"Hey Sathranach, did you hear about your older brother, Granthatian?"

"No, I haven't heard from him since he destroyed the continento fo Uthrenaiastan. How is he?"

"He's dead."

"HUH?"

"Yeah a group of 6 of those manlings walked right into his lair and killed him. Weren't afraid of him. Had some kind of protection against his breath, and these swords that cut through dragon flesh like a tooth through a sheep. Killed him in about 30 seconds. Left a message screwled on the wall of the lair, "You're next, Sathranach!" "

"Eh, let em come. I can take em. No puny manlings have beaten me yet!"

 

[iwatt]

Something tells me you're not used to high level play. A 20th level rogue might have trouble on his own, as the blindsight will make sneak attacks harder, but with the right items (Ring of Blinking etc) that can be overcome. The 20th level fighter will abolutely cream him, he'll have better attack, do more damage and probably have more more hit points as well. Any 20th level fighter worth his salt will also have flying capability and Freedom of Movement, negating the best abilities of the dragon. And the 20th cleric and wizard will just simply destroy him with their DC28+ destruction or Wail of the Banshee.

A party of 13th level character will of course have more problems, that's why his CR is 13 .

.Ziggy

You are basing your examples on the fact that the PC is prepared beforehand. If you are going to use the example of a buffed out single class fighter or rogue, then you should at least give the Dragon the same benefit.

And Anyways, flying PCs still can't catch a flying Dragon due to the absurdly high flying speeds of the Dragons. The best shot for the fighter is to catch the Dragon in tight quarters (hopefully squeezed) and have a Ring of freedom of movement (not a given in all campaigns).

It's been proven in these boards (at least to me) that it is possible to beat incredibly tough encounters (EL 6+) with enough preparation and the correct and precise allocation of resources.

The point tha was been made (which I agree on) is that a CR 13 dragon should beat a single class 20th Level, average PC, when the encounter is taken on equal footing. And to qualify this statement even further:

by average PC I mean a core rulebooks PC built using average wealth but also built through campaingning through the 20 Levels. Supposedly (and this is an opinion) the gear you have in Level 20 should include some subpar items you've actually obtained through your own blood and sweat. This is stuff you've collected through the years, not something you got with your Faerun Express at the Adventuerer'R'US back at Waterdeep the week before. The half price rule for selling is there for a reason.

by equal footing I mean that it isn't a "fair" fight if you allow a 20th Level the chance to cherry pick all his options (wealth, feats, etc) and not allow the same for the Dragon. Reverse the roles once in a while and have a CR 13 Dragon do the Scry-buff-teleport on an unsuspecting level 20 PC. See how even they are. Also, unless forewarned, not every caster will have the complete "Dragon-slaying" suite (sp?) of spells prepared beforehand.

And to adress your statement about a spellcaster: Yes, a 20th level caster has a 50% (aproximately based on what others on this thread said) of taking out the dragon with one spell. But therefoer he also has a 50% chance of not killing him. Those aren't particularly good odds in my book.


Basically, fighting a Dragon is unfair. He's a tough monster with some decent spellcasting thrown in. He also has some interesting special qualities. Take into account his excellent perceptions and defenses, and you have one tough mo... That's why fighting Dragons is and always has been about stacking the odds as far possible in your favor. Fair fights are for suckers, and never more so against a Dragon, any Dragon.