Dragon Tactics - How smart and original can you be?

[S'mon]

I don't mind the idea that dragons are cunning - it's the ones casting buffs and flying around with staves in their claws that make me roll my eyes.

Yes, me too on both counts. The last dragonfight I ran ("An Icy Heart"), the writer had the dragon decked out with _boots_ (fer chrissakes!) as well as cloak, bracers rings etc etc... *sigh* - I removed the treasure from the dragon & added it to its treasure pile, which made it a bit easy but a lot less cheasy. I guess I like my dragons 1e style (but w better mechanics). One thing I've done is remove spellcasting from most dragons and give them additional SR equal to 1+1/highest spell level they could otherwise cast. This should prevent both the tendency for dragons to be easily defeated by spell effects like polymorph and the tendency for them to be unhittable by the PC fighters due to spell buffs (Mage Armour etc).

 

[sfedi]

A CR 14 dragon won't sit cowering in its heavily fortified lair, because it has never run into anything in the world that could challenge it for the past few centuries. Those 15th-level PCs who come knocking? The dragon might assume they're just like every other group it's faced: the 100+ groups of 4th-10th level chumps who gave it its gold hoard in the first place.

I can't beleive this scenario.
A Dragon ASSUMES that every human bold enough to come ot it is a weakling?
And those are the "lords of might"?
With such a weak strategy?
Any creature who has that mindset couldn't make it that far.

Of course, as a younger Dragon, maybe he wasn't that cocky, but havne't thisdragon had enough experience as to know that there are some humans who could kick his a$$ ? (i.e. 20th level)

I find it hard to believe that scenario.

 

[S'mon]

Of course, as a younger Dragon, maybe he wasn't that cocky, but havne't thisdragon had enough experience as to know that there are some humans who could kick his a$$ ? (i.e. 20th level)

To a large extent that depends on level distribution in the setting - IMC there aren't really bands of 20th level NPCs - 20th-level NPCs are rare enough that if they exist at all it's as a gathering of the world's greatest heroes brought together for a specific task (which might be to destroy the dragon that's laying waste to civilisation). I also assume dragons breed fairly fast and most _do_ die before reaching advanced age, probably more often killed by rival dragons or giants than by humans, though.

 

[Endur]

Here is an example CR 13 Dragon. This Dragon can probably take any 20th level character in a 1 on 1 fight. So, short of an epic character or a deity, this Dragon is not going to be afraid of any single PC. The Dragon would know, though, that a group can be more dangerous than an individual enemy. On the other hand, groups of enemies is why the Dragon has a breath weapon.

young adult red dragon; CR 13; Huge dragon (fire); HD 19d12+95 (218 hp); Init +4; Spd 40 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor); AC 26, touch 8, flat-footed 26; BAB +19; Grapple +37; Atk +27 melee (2d8+10, bite) or +27 melee (2d8+15, crush); Full Atk +27 melee (2d8+10, bite) and +25 melee (2d6+5, 2 claws) and +25 melee (1d8+5, 2 wings) and +25 melee (2d6+15, tail slap); or +27 melee (2d8+15, crush); SA Breath weapon, crush, frightful presence, spells; SQ Blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 120 ft., DR 5/magic, immunity to fire, sleep, and paralysis, locate object, keen senses, SR 19, vulnerability to cold; Space/Reach 15/10 (15 with bite); AL CE; SV Fort +16, Ref +11, Will +13; Str 31, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14.
Skills and Feats: Bluff +21, Concentration +24, Diplomacy +23, Intimidate +4, Jump +35, Knowledge (religion) +21, Listen +21, Search +21, Spellcraft +13, Spot +21; Ability Focus (breath weapon), Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Power Attack, Wingover.
Breath Weapon (Su): 50 ft. cone of fire, 10d10 points of fire damage, Ref save DC 26 half.
Frightful Presence (Ex): 150 ft. range; creatures must succeed at a Will save (DC 21) or become panicked for 4d6 rounds (if 4 or less HD) or become shaken for 4d6 rounds (5 HD or more).
Crush (Ex): This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents). A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 24) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape. Crush attack deals 2d8+15 points of damage.
Keen Senses (Ex): Sees four times as well a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. also has darkvision out to 120 ft.
Locate Object (Sp): 5/day (as Sor5).
Spells Known (6/7/5; base DC = 12 + spell level): 0--arcane mark, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand, open/close, read magic; 1--alarm, cure light wounds, mage armor, true strike; 2--cure moderate wounds, invisibility

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I can't beleive this scenario.
A Dragon ASSUMES that every human bold enough to come ot it is a weakling?

I'm suggesting that centuries of experience has shown the dragon that everything that has been bold enough to come after it is a weakling... at least compared to it. It's going to be cocky because it has always won fairly easily and it thinks it always will win.
Maybe once or twice, the greatest heroes of the kingdom banded together to slay it - a bunch of 12th-level PC-classed NPCs, classified as "legendary" according to the spell Legend Lore - and while they were something of a challenge, it still beat them in a straight-up fight. (If you think 12th-level NPCs are common, then maybe a dragon would start getting really cocky around CR 19 instead)

I clearly prefer games where PCs are exceptional. In such a world, the dragon will be cocky. Again, think Smaug. If high-level NPCs are common (and NPCs can only get to high level by consistently encountering challenges they can overcome), then the dragons would quite likely be more cowardly.

 

[Victim]

My problem with the whole "Dragons as super geniuses" thing is that most of them aren't. PC spellcasters of comparable level to the dragon's CR will generally have superior mental stats. Look at the CR 13 dragon above. It's effectively a bright human; as smart as a fighter going Expertise/Imp Trip. There are plenty of other monsters with comparable mentals at this CR and below. No one flips out about disposable demons or clerics.

 

[Sarellion]

IMC dragons are hailing from a different plane and were content t fly around and mess with their subjects. After the PCs brought back Mahallon, god-king of dragons, some decided to move to the prime material plane.

These are dragon with no actual experience in fighting humans , so at the moment their tactics are rather clumsy. On the other hand are the dragon who already live on the prime and they know that they are not necessarily the biggest fish.

So dragon tactics depend on background. Dragons who are newcomers are more reckless and know little of possible dangers. Experienced prime dragons seize up their objective first and then decide on a course of action or use one of their established strategies. Younger dragons from remote areas are prone to reckless behaviuor and think they can bully around every humanoid. Most of them quickly see the error of their ways as some of the bigger fishes come out to play.

 

[Evilhalfling]

So what would be good tactics for a dragon who must compete with other dragons?
that can perhaps be turned against adventures as well -
Protective spells would be good as dragons of near equal might, cave ins, elemental traps.
could all by turned against dragons or men.

 

[Davelozzi]

A red dragon lives inside a volcano. The party must traverse an open cavern filled with lava by means of 5ft. stepping stones that only allow enough room for each party member to go in single file. Besides the obvious Balance checks that have to be employed, the dragon waits in the magma for the last character to pass and then catches him by surprise from behind only to vanish in the magma again. Assuming the party members fail their Spot checks, they will believe the character fell into the magma.

Only if the dragon is completely silent, and the victim doesn't cry out as he's being attacked by it.

 

[shilsen]

Here is an example CR 13 Dragon. This Dragon can probably take any 20th level character in a 1 on 1 fight. So, short of an epic character or a deity, this Dragon is not going to be afraid of any single PC. The Dragon would know, though, that a group can be more dangerous than an individual enemy. On the other hand, groups of enemies is why the Dragon has a breath weapon.

You're kidding, right? A 13th lvl spellcaster has an excellent chance of getting past its SR and will have something like a DC 24 on his highest lvl spells, so the dragon has only a 50% chance of saving on its Will save. And that's just one enemy. If the dragon goes up against a party of four 13th lvl characters and doesn't use very intelligent tactics and its resources, it is toast. My money's on the single 20th lvl PC.