Dragonborn/Tiefling- which campaign setting?

[Andor]

I don't think rare or unique creatures should be PCs.

I confess I don't get this. Certain story/game forms are about humans facing down inhuman monsters, Swords and Sorcery for example. But D&D is not usually that form of fantasy.

The tale of the outsider who saved the girl/village/world is a stock D&D trope, and the more alien the outsider the better. (Within limits. No one wants a heroic Old One.)

Likewise the hero who saves people who despise him is an old story and one well suited to D&D.

For specific campaigns, absolutely. If the PCs all come from the same small village then the characters should all be representative of the inhabitants of the village. But for the average campaign? Bring on the weirdness.

As for villagers being scared of you... I find this one glossed over in most campaigns. Frankly most adventurers shoould scare the hell out of people regardless of race. The ranger covered with trophies from his favored enemies, the fighter clutching a flaming sword, the rogue covered in daggers and dressed in black, even a powerful looking cleric of a god few in the village pay heed to. A mid level party coming into town is about like seeing a battle worn armoured division rolling down your street. And you're not sure whose army they are....

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

As for villagers being scared of you... I find this one glossed over in most campaigns. Frankly most adventurers shoould scare the hell out of people regardless of race. The ranger covered with trophies from his favored enemies, the fighter clutching a flaming sword, the rogue covered in daggers and dressed in black, even a powerful looking cleric of a god few in the village pay heed to. A mid level party coming into town is about like seeing a battle worn armoured division rolling down your street. And you're not sure whose army they are....

In Perdido Street Station, the main characters' response to the arrival of the adventurers is one of barely-concealed disgust at the thought of working with that kind of murderous lowlife. Adventurers are crazy people with a death wish who kill for money and have no proper ties to family and friends. They wander around looking for things to kill for cash. To a regular person, particularly a civilized one, adventurers must seem to be totally insane, and probably dangerous to have around.

 

[broghammerj]

The tale of the outsider who saved the girl/village/world is a stock D&D trope, and the more alien the outsider the better. (Within limits. No one wants a heroic Old One.)

Likewise the hero who saves people who despise him is an old story and one well suited to D&D.

I more prefer the common man who rose up to defeat evil and tyranny. Not the alien or foreigner who has not interest in the plight of village he has not association to.

As for villagers being scared of you... I find this one glossed over in most campaigns.

I agree which is why I don't run my campaigns that way. This furthers the reason why I think Dragonborns and Tieflings would already add gasoline to a burning fire.

 

[Li Shenron]

There is nothing forcing 3rd parties to use Teiflings and Dragonborn. Just like there was nothing them forcing them to use half-orcs or monks

Not strictly speaking, there isn't. But how many 3ed settings (not counting those which totally revamp races or classes) decided to "drop" 1-2 PHB classes or races which didn't fit?

I bet that even a 4e DarkSun will certainly have Tieflings and Dragonborns, just because they are from the PHB. They will just market it as "a refreshing modernized version" of DarkSun.

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about a new monster book, which tends to introduce hundreds of new creatures into a campaign world. I think there are two major reasons for this:

1) D&D worlds typically have plenty of room for a new scary monster around every corner.
2) The DM can always choose not to use them.

Totally agree so far...

In my opinion, both of these things apply equally to PC races.

...and totally disagree here.

 

[rounser]

But for the average campaign? Bring on the weirdness.

Nah. That's the monster's department, that's the adventure's department. The PCs have all these outlandish powers and magic items as gimmicks already, why do we need to pile on exotic races in the core as yet another one? In a supplement, go sick, but don't make it the default.

Where is this fundamental disconnect in understanding what makes D&D tick for some styles of play which has the PCs as the monsters? WOTC has decided that this is more fun for us, so under their new regime if you want classic heroes to act as a contrast to a fantasy world full of weirdness you're stuck. Instead, rocking up to the plate is something called a "dragonborn warlord", which doesn't make sense on multiple levels.

Look, I understand that the art department wants to paint horns on the PCs, and it looked really good when Paizo did it, so let's borrow the idea. What's needed though is a paradigm shift and bring monsters into the picture so it's not just the PCs posing for the camera. 3E did that, would it really have sold more books than the alternative, emphasising the world and the adventure? D&D isn't just about the PCs posing for the damn camera. There's more to it than that.

Look at that recent Caves of Chaos painting, that's the vibe D&D should be aiming for if it wants to differentiate itself from the glut of MMORPGs and CRPGs, not more kewl powerz gimmickry. And it's the only thing D&D truly is good at - acting as a DIY Fantasy World Construction Kit, and WOTC's new direction is compromising that, taking that away.

 

[ivocaliban]

I'm pretty sure the Argonians are just lizards, not dragons. They didn't really do anything overtly "Dragonish"; they just lived in a swamp, were immune to disease/poison, and could breathe underwater.

But he's right about Wizardry. I've been playing Wizadry 8 recently and it's got the Dracon (Dragonfolk), the Felpurr (Catfolk), the Rawulf (Dogfolk)...not to mention space ships, aliens, an Android monk...on top of all the standard fantasy races. From what I've read so far the 4e "setting" sounds quite a bit like The Wilderlands of High Fantasy and Wizardry 8.

 

[Andor]

And it's the only thing D&D truly is good at - acting as a DIY Fantasy World Construction Kit, and WOTC's new direction is compromising that, taking that away.

... If you think D&D is suitable only for DIY world construction then why wouldn't you want as many options as possible available from the get-go? It's like saying you want to build your own pizza, but only cheese should come in the box. All the other toppings should be bought seperately. I say at least let them throw in the pepperoni, you don't have to use it if you don't want to.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

... If you think D&D is suitable only for DIY world construction then why wouldn't you want as many options as possible available from the get-go? It's like saying you want to build your own pizza, but only cheese should come in the box. All the other toppings should be bought seperately. I say at least let them throw in the pepperoni, you don't have to use it if you don't want to.

To hijack your metaphor, I think that the compliant isn't that they added more than just cheese. It's that, in addition to pepperoni, mushrooms, peppers, and other basic toppings, they threw in anchovies. Now, anchovies are great if you like them, but most people don't. If there are only 5 toppings in a kit, how many people are just going to chuck the anchovies and use the other 4? How many of those people would be happy to add a 5th topping that isn't anchovies?

The issue, I think, is that they believe that the designers could have used those pages to put in a race (or races) that would suit a wider audience, and that the tiefling and dragonborn are fringe choices at best, and therefore more suitable for inclusion in a supplement, so that those who want anchovies can purchase them specifically.

I don't agree, since I like tieflings and am completely ambivalent about dragonborn. But I see where they're coming from.

 

[Derren]

As I see it moste people seem to dislike tieflings and dragonborn because:

1. They wanted a different race in the PHB and hate everything other than that race
2. They hate Tieflings and Dragonborn because they are new races which were not in LOTR
2.5. Because Tieflings and Dragonborn haven't much of a role in their previous campaign they (want to) think that those races are too exotic and unsuitable for PCs.
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432524235. Because the name "Dragonborn" translates really bad into Finnish.