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<blockquote data-quote="Cadence" data-source="post: 8582518" data-attributes="member: 6701124">Edit: Just reread your #1599 post (quoted in the one following this, where you mention charm person in particular).&nbsp; It feels like we aren't that far off...The bard using their words and charisma to beguile, gaslight, and brainwash someone without fail feels a lot worse to me than momentarily making the guard drop their weapon (with command), making them forget you snuck past (wiping out a few seconds of memory), making them not see you (invisibility a la the Shadow), or making them tell you where the kidnapped kids are (digging for that one fact in their brain).&nbsp;&nbsp; If we're comparing full beguile-gaslight-brainwash effect to full beguile-gaslight-brainwash effect, the mundane bard talking way doesn't seem incredibly better to me than using magical mind control to do it.&nbsp;&nbsp; What makes it so different if the chance of success is the same?&nbsp;&nbsp; Is the effect of &quot;Charm Person&quot; (make them think you're a friendly acquaintance for an hour) in 5e more limited than what cult leaders often end up doing?&nbsp; (Which, granted, is a pretty low bar!)Using hold person seems likely to cause less long term damage than sapping them or less likelihood of cardiac arrest than a stun gun.&nbsp; It was &quot;maim or kill&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp; Sure, you can knock them out with the pommel?&nbsp;&nbsp; (Concussion risk?)&nbsp; Flat of the blade seems a bit non-efficient if they're going to be fighting back while armed.&nbsp; How was it usually done?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cadence, post: 8582518, member: 6701124"] Edit: Just reread your #1599 post (quoted in the one following this, where you mention charm person in particular). It feels like we aren't that far off... The bard using their words and charisma to beguile, gaslight, and brainwash someone without fail feels a [I]lot[/I] worse to me than momentarily making the guard drop their weapon (with command), making them forget you snuck past (wiping out a few seconds of memory), making them not see you (invisibility a la the Shadow), or making them tell you where the kidnapped kids are (digging for that one fact in their brain). If we're comparing full beguile-gaslight-brainwash effect to full beguile-gaslight-brainwash effect, the mundane bard talking way doesn't seem incredibly better to me than using magical mind control to do it. What makes it so different if the chance of success is the same? Is the effect of "Charm Person" (make them think you're a friendly acquaintance for an hour) in 5e more limited than what cult leaders often end up doing? (Which, granted, is a pretty low bar!) Using hold person seems likely to cause less long term damage than sapping them or less likelihood of cardiac arrest than a stun gun. It was "maim or kill". Sure, you can knock them out with the pommel? (Concussion risk?) Flat of the blade seems a bit non-efficient if they're going to be fighting back while armed. How was it usually done? [/QUOTE]

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