Dragonmarked

[Graf]

The review is up.

[sblock]Lei getting kicked out or not kicked out isn't the issue for me. It's her whole life up until that point. Basically she does exactly what she's told, she goes where she's instructed, she marries the guy they pick for her, etc.
Like the young daughter of a noble family in medieval Europe she has no say in any decision of significance in her life. And it’s not her personality. Dane never says “you don’t have to do what your parents want, etc etc” because, socially, SHE DOES.
His case supports that point, he's performed terrible (but unexplained) acts on behalf of his house for the house's monetary benefit, and then leavings and never speaking to anyone from it again (as much as he can).

It's fairly clear that in KB's novels at least in your house you do what you’re told. And your House tells you what to do a lot.
He’s not Dragonmarked, btw, he’s just a member of his house.

It is some kind of weird ‘port’ of medieval life.

I take issue with this on two levels
1. It’s not good for DnD games. The roleplaying suppliments don’t imply that House members are as bound as they are in KB’s novels, but anything that he writes is going to noticed. So a player who doesn’t want to roleplay being at someone’s beck and call all the time is never going to be interested in playing Dragonmarked. And any DM who wants to include them is going to be faced with the image (set up by these novels) that it’s basically like a legal version of the mafia. You do what the godfather says or you leave and hope you never need to call on his aid again.
It makes it hard to imagine a Favored in House character who would be fun to play. Especially since some DMs tend to jerk characters around a bit. “Sure you can be some important noble, but you have to do exactly what DMNPC says or you’re in big trouble!”

2. It’s weak storytelling. It’s easy to create dramatic situations in a novel by creating a monolithic force in a character’s life and letting them get all angsty about how they’re oppressed and stuff. Except for their House relationships and a couple of adjectives (Dane is stalwart, Lei is quiet) they don’t have much depth as characters. Dane spends most of his character time emoting about how terrible the houses are. Lei spends most of her time dealing with Dane emoting and then with the fact that she’s been kicked out.
It’s not terribly interesting for the reader. If KB had spun a great story out of it I would be more forgiving about point 1. but he hasn’t.
He’s a gifted creator in general, and I expect that if he keeps writing he’ll hit his stride, but a lot of the points where he deviates from DnD (All-members-of-dragonmarked-houses-are-virtual-slaves, Pierce being immune to the mindflayer’s mindblast because he’s a Warforged, Lei’s mark giving her access to disable construct) don’t’ seem to do much story wise.
Obviously people like GRRM are spoiling readers of fantasy right now. But it’s hard not to think that Eberron provides holds potential for more interesting stories than are being told.[/sblock]

 

[Vocenoctum]

It's her whole life up until that point. Basically she does exactly what she's told, she goes where she's instructed, she marries the guy they pick for her, etc.
Like the young daughter of a noble family in medieval Europe she has no say in any decision of significance in her life. And it’s not her personality. Dane never says “you don’t have to do what your parents want, etc etc” because, socially, SHE DOES.

There's really nothing spoilery here, so I removed the blocks. I think the problem with using Lei as an example, is that her case is NOT the norm. She's the daughter of a pair of very influential artificers and she was raised in a political capacity. She's a merchant princess and some things are expected of her. The house is not composed of lots of such members and there's really no evidence that it might be.

Houses are composed of several very large families, some members are more important than others.

I take issue with this on two levels
1. It’s not good for DnD games. The roleplaying suppliments don’t imply that House members are as bound as they are in KB’s novels, but anything that he writes is going to noticed. So a player who doesn’t want to roleplay being at someone’s beck and call all the time is never going to be interested in playing Dragonmarked. And any DM who wants to include them is going to be faced with the image (set up by these novels) that it’s basically like a legal version of the mafia. You do what the godfather says or you leave and hope you never need to call on his aid again.

People can read into the material whatever they want, and I think this is more about perception than what was actually written. I don't think anything in the novels portrays Lei as a typical House member. It's entirely possible that she is, certainly, but that assumption is up to the reader to make or not make as desired. So I don't see it as evidence of monolithic houses, and since the books contradict the notion that they are monolithic, it seems pointless to assign that to them.

2. It’s weak storytelling. <snip>
Obviously people like GRRM are spoiling readers of fantasy right now. But it’s hard not to think that Eberron provides holds potential for more interesting stories than are being told.

Keep in mind that all such novels are subjective, and I enjoyed the Dreaming Dark trilogy a lot, in spite of the ending. GRRM's characterizations are overly melodramatic and left me not wanting to read any of his works anymore.

 

[Graf]

I disagree completely with your interpretation.
I could see someone, a DM, advancing the arugements you have so that their version of Eberron could both include the events of KB’s novels AND allow for “free” Dragonmarked PCs.
But you’re basically rewriting the events of the books to make that happen.

I think the problem with using Lei as an example, is that her case is NOT the norm. She's the daughter of a pair of very influential artificers and she was raised in a political capacity.

I think we’ve read different books.
She describes herself as being normal and ordinary (except for slightly reserved/distant parents) several times in the book.

Her parents secret background is, well, it’s a secret. After the events of the second book her “true history” starts to come out. But I’m talking about her life prior to the events of the books.

She's a merchant princess and some things are expected of her. The house is not composed of lots of such members and there's really no evidence that it might be.

She is. But that’s because she’s Dragonmarked. Not because her parents secret history has somehow made her obliged to follow lots of special rules that other Dragonmarked are immune to.
The evidence that she is a normal Dragonmarked like others (or perceived that way until the events of the novel bring the secret background to light) is basically overwhelming.
She says so, other people say so, other people treat her that way. Etc etc.

Regarding the Dragonmarked and their prevalence in the house: Reread the ECS. I did last night actually and it specifically describes the Dragonmarked as the nobility of the house providing magic while the other non-marked members do the heavy lifting. It’s hard to stress this enough but anyone who is Dragonmarked is a merchant princess.
Later on in the books it turns out that Lei’s family participated in some crucial history/research but it is make explicitly clear in her dealings with other members of the house that they don’t know why she is being targeted.

If nobody knows her secret history that can’t be the reason why she’s a slave to the will of the house, can it?
Furthermore it’s similar for Dane. All the events in the books suggest strongly that they had little choice in their lives (other than the choice to break with the house).

I don't think anything in the novels portrays Lei as a typical House member. It's entirely possible that she is, certainly, but that assumption is up to the reader to make or not make as desired.

These two sentences are contradictory. If, in the course of her dealings with lots of different Housemembers, as well as dealings with members of other Houses and third party narration discussing her role in the house she is not identified as being special then a normal reader will assume that she is, in fact, normal.
If you read in a book that the character says “I am standing in front of a fireplace” it’s not an ‘assumption’ to say that they’re standing in front of a fireplace.

She treats her whole life being decided by the house as normal, Dane treats it as normal (and complains about it constantly). If she were some kind of special person whose life was different from other Dragonmarked members of the house then the dozens and dozens of pages of conversation and third party narration going over her participation and role in her house would have called it out.

There are contexts where you could be considered correct; like in the case of an unreliable narrator but (unfortunately) this book lacks things like that.

Keep in mind that all such novels are subjective, and I enjoyed the Dreaming Dark trilogy a lot, in spite of the ending.

You’re wrong.
Liking a novel is subjective. What is written in a novel forms the basis for an objective reading of the events it describes (especially in WotC type novels that lack complexities like unreliable narrators).

I’m not, btw, saying that you should or shouldn’t like the books. I’m glad you like them. While I personally find things to criticize about the novels it doesn’t really mean that I’m saying “nobody should like these books” I’m just criticizing decisions the author made.

Since KB wrote Eberron and was deeply involved in designing the world I do assume a high degree of understanding of it (which is not something that you normally assume about authors of WotC books). But I think that’s a fair thing to do.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I think we’ve read different books.
She describes herself as being normal and ordinary (except for slightly reserved/distant parents) several times in the book.
<snip>
Her parents secret background is, well, it’s a secret. After the events of the second book her “true history” starts to come out. But I’m talking about her life prior to the events of the books.

Except for that whole, I dunno, MAKING WARFORGED thing.
I guess that's the normal duty for every random guy with a Mark of Making. Running a hidden Creation Forge. It's obvious to me that Lei's interactions with the House leadership is based on her parents being powerful members. If you don't see that, then perhaps we did read different books.

The evidence that she is a normal Dragonmarked like others (or perceived that way until the events of the novel bring the secret background to light) is basically overwhelming.
She says so, other people say so, other people treat her that way. Etc etc.

You're mixing togethor what she knows with what the folks in charge believe/know. She's not a threat because she has a mark, but because of who her parents were, or might have been.

Regarding the Dragonmarked and their prevalence in the house: Reread the ECS. I did last night actually and it specifically describes the Dragonmarked as the nobility of the house providing magic while the other non-marked members do the heavy lifting. It’s hard to stress this enough but anyone who is Dragonmarked is a merchant princess.

The magical ability predisposes them to an important position, just as being an artificer or other PC class would put them ahead of the Commoner or Expert. House Sivis doesn't man each Speaking Stone with a Merchant Prince, but with a Dragonmarked member of the house.

Later on in the books it turns out that Lei’s family participated in some crucial history/research but it is make explicitly clear in her dealings with other members of the house that they don’t know why she is being targeted.

Right, and they're not the ones targeting her, that's sort of my point. There are certain unbreakable edicts (excoriation must be followed through, for the most part. No Mixing Marks. No betraying the secret gnome conspiracy that rules Khorvaire.) but by no means is every member of the house being excoriated randomly.

Furthermore it’s similar for Dane. All the events in the books suggest strongly that they had little choice in their lives (other than the choice to break with the house).

Dane was a member of a mercenary house, and left without real penalty.

Again, it seems to confuse what the character was raised to believe is their duty (must join Corps, must marry who House says) with what is practical and actually part of House policy.

These two sentences are contradictory. If, in the course of her dealings with lots of different Housemembers, as well as dealings with members of other Houses and third party narration discussing her role in the house she is not identified as being special then a normal reader will assume that she is, in fact, normal.
If you read in a book that the character says “I am standing in front of a fireplace” it’s not an ‘assumption’ to say that they’re standing in front of a fireplace.

It's not so simply stated as that though. She doesn't know why something is happening to her, obviously such interaction is abnormal for the "regular housemember" she thinks she is. It's also obvious that others consider her differently.

You’re wrong.
Liking a novel is subjective. What is written in a novel forms the basis for an objective reading of the events it describes (especially in WotC type novels that lack complexities like unreliable narrators).

No, my point is simply that those predisposed to considering the Houses too monolithic will look for references that reinforce that as they read, while those that don't will form a different view. You read the material with a bias, just as I do or anyone else does.

I’m not, btw, saying that you should or shouldn’t like the books. I’m glad you like them. While I personally find things to criticize about the novels it doesn’t really mean that I’m saying “nobody should like these books” I’m just criticizing decisions the author made.

Nyah, that was a seperate thing. JUst saying that I disagree that GRRM's characters are any better developed than KB's.

Since KB wrote Eberron and was deeply involved in designing the world I do assume a high degree of understanding of it (which is not something that you normally assume about authors of WotC books). But I think that’s a fair thing to do.

Sort of, he created the initial kernel, and it has been expanded since then. Even before the core book was published, others had a hand in it. I agree he's probably the singularly most influential figure of course. (Greenwood to FR, Gygax to GH, as it were.)

 

[Aaron L]

One thing that really disappointed me was that there doesn't appear to be any information about the different families that make up the Houses. I really wanted some info about that, or at least their dang names.

Did I miss it, or was that info just not in the book?


PS if anyone knows the names of the families that make up House Cannith I'd really like them.

Hellcow, any info/thoughts?

 

[Vocenoctum]

One thing that really disappointed me was that there doesn't appear to be any information about the different families that make up the Houses. I really wanted some info about that, or at least their dang names.

Did I miss it, or was that info just not in the book?

It's in some of them, but the Houses were written by different authors and the differences in format show at times. Not much info even in the ones that got it, the book could have been a bit bigger and still had plenty to work with.

 

[Graf]

One thing that really disappointed me was that there doesn't appear to be any information about the different families that make up the Houses. I really wanted some info about that, or at least their dang names.

Traveling right now so I can't provide much detail but the Thrashk had a reasonable showing for its page legth discussing the three major clans, their tendencies (worship of the dragon below or inclination toward druidism), leaders and some mini-hooks.
Not sure about the others off the top of my head.

 

[Aaron L]

Traveling right now so I can't provide much detail but the Thrashk had a reasonable showing for its page legth discussing the three major clans, their tendencies (worship of the dragon below or inclination toward druidism), leaders and some mini-hooks.
Not sure about the others off the top of my head.

Well, I was specifically looking for House Cannith (as my current character is going to be a member) and they didn't have a single mention, even in passing. Didn't even hint about their being different families in the House.

 

[Dragon Vindaloo]

I'm getting ready to run the savage tide path in the realms, i didnt use the official realms conversion notes, instead prefering to pretty much use the dungeon material as it comes with a few names swaps etc.

I was thinking of using the concept of ''dragon marks'' (but changing them a little) for each of Sasserines important families and maybe tying it all to the black dragon that Sasserine (the woman) defeated before the city was founded and then making it all more realms flavoured.

So I was wondering if the book is worth getting for that, what sorta feats, classes it has etc?