Dragons and their spells.
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D'karr
Adventurer
As far as I know, sorcerers and wizards cast spells in exactly the same manner. They both use verbal,somatic and material components. So in reality you couldn't tell whether a wizard or a sorcerer is casting a spell. The only difference between them is that one requires preparation and the other doesn't.
Magus_Jerel
First Post
Quick answers -
1. No, because SLA's are a "sub type" of "spells" (one type magical effect) that cannot normally be metamagiked. This is because they do not use the slot system i.e. there is no "higher level" slot to put the thing in - and for no other reason.
2. yes - the provoke AoO normally
3. if you do slap on extra levels - they stack, and the CR goes up accordingly IE monster CR + character levels.
4. You could do this - I don't see anythig unbalancing about it. In that event, the Wiz levels would stack with the sor ones as per 3.
5. It depends entirely on the background in your setting what would be logically "consistent". It is a rule 0 for a particular creature. Nothing wrong or unbalancing about it, although you COULD do it with just one creature - I wouldn't do it that way. It leads to consistency problems.
1. No, because SLA's are a "sub type" of "spells" (one type magical effect) that cannot normally be metamagiked. This is because they do not use the slot system i.e. there is no "higher level" slot to put the thing in - and for no other reason.
2. yes - the provoke AoO normally
3. if you do slap on extra levels - they stack, and the CR goes up accordingly IE monster CR + character levels.
4. You could do this - I don't see anythig unbalancing about it. In that event, the Wiz levels would stack with the sor ones as per 3.
5. It depends entirely on the background in your setting what would be logically "consistent". It is a rule 0 for a particular creature. Nothing wrong or unbalancing about it, although you COULD do it with just one creature - I wouldn't do it that way. It leads to consistency problems.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Question is: How would the PCs be able to get information on whether a particular dragon casts spells as a sorcerer or wizard?
First, as D'karr said, there is no mechanical difference between the manner in which a sorcerer casts spells and a wizard casts spells. Both are subject to the same Spellcraft checks and components rules, can be counterspelled in the same manner, etc. Unless there were living witnesses who could testify as to whether the dragon used spellbooks, it does not appear that a detectable difference in casting ability would exist.
Second, how would anyone have this sort of information on a particular dragon? Dragons are relatively secretive creatures who lair in remote areas far from the purview of humanity. The only individuals likely to have studied a particular dragon's spellcasting habits are adventurers who had engaged the dragon in combat; if the dragon is still living, it is probable that those adventurers are not. Pretty much the only means of identifying a particular dragon as a "wizard spellcaster" vs. a "sorcerer spellcaster" would be that suggested by Voadam (wizards and dragons trading spells); a situation that is unlikely at best.
The "precedent" mentioned by hong is that set forth in the description of the white dragon Arauthator on the WotC website. Arauthator's sorcerer levels (Sor5) stack with his innate spellcasting ability.
Wiz/sor is a relatively inefficient multiclass for PCs; on an NPC, where the levels can be added willy-nilly, it's potentially quite powerful, since you can combine the flexibility of casting a few known spells using spontaneous casting with the vast array of spells known as a wizard. Also, the bonus metamagic feats from wizard levels are even more useful in casting sorcerer spells, as a rule.
First, as D'karr said, there is no mechanical difference between the manner in which a sorcerer casts spells and a wizard casts spells. Both are subject to the same Spellcraft checks and components rules, can be counterspelled in the same manner, etc. Unless there were living witnesses who could testify as to whether the dragon used spellbooks, it does not appear that a detectable difference in casting ability would exist.
Second, how would anyone have this sort of information on a particular dragon? Dragons are relatively secretive creatures who lair in remote areas far from the purview of humanity. The only individuals likely to have studied a particular dragon's spellcasting habits are adventurers who had engaged the dragon in combat; if the dragon is still living, it is probable that those adventurers are not. Pretty much the only means of identifying a particular dragon as a "wizard spellcaster" vs. a "sorcerer spellcaster" would be that suggested by Voadam (wizards and dragons trading spells); a situation that is unlikely at best.
The "precedent" mentioned by hong is that set forth in the description of the white dragon Arauthator on the WotC website. Arauthator's sorcerer levels (Sor5) stack with his innate spellcasting ability.
Wiz/sor is a relatively inefficient multiclass for PCs; on an NPC, where the levels can be added willy-nilly, it's potentially quite powerful, since you can combine the flexibility of casting a few known spells using spontaneous casting with the vast array of spells known as a wizard. Also, the bonus metamagic feats from wizard levels are even more useful in casting sorcerer spells, as a rule.
ruleslawyer said:
There are ways to find some of this out.
- Maximum number of spells per day. A wizard isn't going to have as high a spells per day as a sorcerer, it usually isn't even close. If a dragon is known to have cast 8 fireballs during a single day while attacking a town, it is probably a sorcerer (with a 22 Cha or better). If you have reliable reports of the dragon using a much larger selection of spells than a Sorcerer could know, the dragon probably knows some wizardry.
- Dragon hordes. If dragons need to use spellbooks, you would find those spellbooks in dragon hordes. This is more in the way of circumstantial evidence. People would find a book that doesn't look like it was written by a human hand (forgery check) and all the spells cast by the dragon appear in it (spellcraft checks). This would not indicate that a particular living dragon is a wizard, but it would indicate that some dragons in the past studied wizardry.
- Big attacks will leave a few witnesses. At some stage in the dragon's life, it would have ran into something where it had to run away or die. If it is still a problem, that means it ran away leaving witnesses. If there has never been a witness, then you should be able to do a single hit and get into defensive position. The dragon will come after you and refuse to retreat, because if it acted any other way that would leave witnesses.
- Some adventurers are also willing to retreat. It is not valid to say that no adventurer has ever attacked a dragon and then retreated. If nothing else, a spell caster could use Word of Recall (cleric) or Teleport (wizard/sorcerer) to flee in terror after seeing the dragon eat their big fighter in one round. The dragon would have a hard time hunting down that adventurer.
- Most dragons are territorial. Except possibly in the case of a mated pair, you aren't going to have multiple adult dragons of the same age category in the same area. If the white dragon that is repeatedly attacking SubZeroVille uses a particular spell, it is a good bet it can use it again.
- Legend Lore, or I don't want to hunt down that library book. Some of this information could be obtained via Legend Lore.
I'm not saying that the adventurers will always know what the heck they are going against.
What I am saying is that if they spend time running down leads, a group should get a hint if it is possible for a dragon to pick up Wizard levels. They should also get a hint as to what the Dragon's most popular spells have historically been. Spells that the dragon has only cast a few times would still be surprises, but not the ones they have been using for a century or more.
Voadam
Legend
Is there anything preventing dragons from picking up wizard class levels even if they have spells as a sorcerer?
Hong's suggestion of DM fiat changing them before was to give them wizard spells as a base, which if it were so I would think a knowledge arcana rule would probably let you know general arcane knowledge of that type. Whether a specific core type dragon has wizard spells from picking up class levels would depend on how much is known about that particular dragon.
Legend lore with the dragon's name would help, as would bardic knowledge.
However, dragons prize their secrets so it might not be well known info. It definitely would not be bar gossip so gather info might not help that much.
Of course you could just ask Elminster, he knows every named Realms dragon along with every area and its politics .
Hong's suggestion of DM fiat changing them before was to give them wizard spells as a base, which if it were so I would think a knowledge arcana rule would probably let you know general arcane knowledge of that type. Whether a specific core type dragon has wizard spells from picking up class levels would depend on how much is known about that particular dragon.
Legend lore with the dragon's name would help, as would bardic knowledge.
However, dragons prize their secrets so it might not be well known info. It definitely would not be bar gossip so gather info might not help that much.
Of course you could just ask Elminster, he knows every named Realms dragon along with every area and its politics .
Voadam
Legend
additive sorcerer levels
Thanks ruleslawyer and Rowenstien.
My thought on the subject was that under the rules they would not add because they do not actually have sorcerer levels and the class is more than spell casting (granted not much more). The adding on is more thematically appropriate, however, I just thought it had to be a house rule addition.
Are they consistent and give them the high level save progression for the appropriate levels of sorcerer?
Thanks ruleslawyer and Rowenstien.
My thought on the subject was that under the rules they would not add because they do not actually have sorcerer levels and the class is more than spell casting (granted not much more). The adding on is more thematically appropriate, however, I just thought it had to be a house rule addition.
Are they consistent and give them the high level save progression for the appropriate levels of sorcerer?
Voadam
Legend
quick disagreement
I agree with Hong and Magus that quicken spell like ability will not affect a dragon's spells but I disagree with magus' reasoning of why.
Since Quicken spell like abilities makes no reference to spells I would say it does not affect spells.
Spell like abilities are a distinct type of magical effect like spells and supernatural abilities.
I believe there is a quote from the monster manual page nine that says "SLAs are similar to spells (even though they are not spells)".
Hong is right that the Feeblemeind thread contains a pretty thorough discussion of this issue.
I agree with Hong and Magus that quicken spell like ability will not affect a dragon's spells but I disagree with magus' reasoning of why.
Since Quicken spell like abilities makes no reference to spells I would say it does not affect spells.
Spell like abilities are a distinct type of magical effect like spells and supernatural abilities.
I believe there is a quote from the monster manual page nine that says "SLAs are similar to spells (even though they are not spells)".
Hong is right that the Feeblemeind thread contains a pretty thorough discussion of this issue.
