Dragons are kinda boring...

[Lizard]

Have you seen one in play? Dragons get a lot of "interrupt" abilities. They don't look that interesting to read, but they're nasty in combat.

This is a common theme I'm seeing in 4e. It plays a lot better than it reads.

Since games are meant to be played, that's a sign of good design.

 

[Reynard]

Have you seen one in play? Dragons get a lot of "interrupt" abilities. They don't look that interesting to read, but they're nasty in combat.

No, and I totally admit it might be a pleasant surprise. But I LOVE dragons as a DM. They are the ultimate adversary. They aren't 4-round bags of hit points -- they are the most powerful creatures to roam the world, ancient and alien and beyond comprehension by even the longest lived mortal races. Their motivations are so complex that the "good" ones might still kill the cleric of Bahamut and the "evil" ones might give sanctuary to travelling pilgrims. And once riled, they are terrors beyond imagining, laying waste to entire cities and even nations. only the most stalwart, most experienced, most courageous of heroes can even hope to stand against them, and even they are not garaunteed to walk away (Beowulf FTW).

3E dragons finally achieved all that for me, with a wide variety of powers and spell casting abilities and languages and skills. I was just severly underwhelmed by the Ancient Red with its 2 or 3 encounter powers. For a "solo" creature, even the greatest of dragons seem, on reading, very limited and boring.

 

[Reynard]

This is a common theme I'm seeing in 4e. It plays a lot better than it reads.

Since games are meant to be played, that's a sign of good design.

I've been away for a while. Is Lizard a convert? if so, I must reassess my entire understanding of the universe, life and everything within.

 

[Incenjucar]

I'm waiting for a thread on how Vorpal weapons are boring because all they do is cause insane amounts of damage.

 

[Rechan]

I've been away for a while. Is Lizard a convert? if so, I must reassess my entire understanding of the universe, life and everything within.

He converted after playing KotS, and figured that 4e monster design is like HERO "Set attributes, pick some powers, yer done" instead of 3e "Monster construction is a calculus formula".

 

[Lizard]

3E dragons finally achieved all that for me, with a wide variety of powers and spell casting abilities and languages and skills. I was just severly underwhelmed by the Ancient Red with its 2 or 3 encounter powers. For a "solo" creature, even the greatest of dragons seem, on reading, very limited and boring.

Basically, the 4e philosophy is "The stuff in the MM is for fighting the monster". Just about everything else is left up to the DM (or the splats). So if you want your evil mastermind dragon plotting huge webs of intrigue while playing the part of a human noble and also running a cult of followers, you have to add on a lot of stuff which isn't in the MM. Mostly rituals. I don't know if dragons shapechange in 4e, but I'm betting they don't, but by the same token, it should be easy to say "Some dragons know a ritual which allows them to take human form at will" or whatever. (Hmmm...to make it interesting, make it require some kind of token, a ring or a necklace...let the PCs figure out the Evil Lord Villainous is really attached to his amulet...have them conspire to get it off him...then find themselves facing 2 tons of angry reptile...)

 

[Rechan]

Speaking of converts, HEY WOLFSPIDER. You started BADD, didn't you? What do you think of the new dragons?

 

[malraux]

3.5 dragons at even moderate levels were rather insane to prep. Its a monster that's need to be built, rather than just run, and has all the complications of a spell caster, plus lots of equipment, plus a rather complicated monster with diverse spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, extraordinary abilities, and feat.

 

[Rechan]

Also, I think that a fight with a dragon should not be just a "Fight with a dragon", but it should be an Event. Dragons are the masters of their element, and are going to fight on their terms; half the battle should be contending with the battlefield as the dragon plays cat to their mice.

You're not just fighting a green or black in a 30x30 room. You're fighting it on a lake with lots of logs strewn about, so the dragon can play "Jaws", hitting and running, while the PCs jump across fallen logs.

A battle with a White is going to be on a mountain pass, where the ledges are icy and the thing can take to the air, bullrush people off of the ledges, or cause avalanches/rockslides.

A blue might attack during a sandstorm, using the blinding sand as concealment to circle and blast the party as they fight against the strong, stinging winds.

A battle with a Red in a forest, where the Red knocks over trees, boxing the PCs in with the difficult terrain, and sets the forest itself on fire. The PCs might have to flee or else getting out alive once the dragon is dead is a problem! Or the Dragon fights in a cave where it targets the rock beneath teh PCs, superheating it until they can't walk on it without taking damage.

 

[Reynard]

He converted after playing KotS, and figured that 4e monster design is like HERO "Set attributes, pick some powers, yer done" instead of 3e "Monster construction is a calculus formula".

Dammit. My world is now shattered.

Thanks, Liz.