Dragons

[Xylix]

I have taken such things into account. I revised the system after some reworking of the numbers.

You are forgetting that Great Wyrms are strategic geniuses in the field of battle.

Unfortunately, a GM may not be. It comes down to the strategic genius of the player against the dragon. The player might very well win do to vastly supperior knowledge of his own capacity.

Not likely. This Great Wyrm Red Dragon may seem a match for that one character, but the Great Wyrm could actually take on four such characters just as easily. (Actually, a normal party would be pretty easy, although four Level 44 Fighters might do the trick.) Fast Healing will make little difference when you're taking 78 points of damage PER ROUND; damage reduction won't make a difference at all because the Great Wyrm could bypass is EASILY; evergy resistance might protect against the breath weapon, but not against the pphysical attacks and crush; other magical items will make little difference.

Fast Healing will make a minor differance, it is more important after battle, as it completely eliminates the need for after battle healing spells.

However, the DR DOES make a differance. The Red dragon's bith deals 35 or so average damage, most of the other attacks deal less. Every feat reduces this by 10%, thus three feats could easily drop the damage per a round to 1/2 normal!!!

As for crush, Legendary Wrestler goes a long way, though they may not escape easily, a intelligent party should avoid getting all nailed by a crush at the same time. It is however one of the more devestating tactics.

The problem is that a 44th level Figther with a relitively dry weapon is dishing back about 100 damage to the dragon per a round.

With the dragon hitting with its breath weapon it isn't even, they are dealing the same back and forth with the same HP. Plus the fact that the figher may be hit by a mass heal.

Epic Feats are a MAJOR power progression. They should not be underestimated in their power to completely trump a creature.

Level = EPR in my system for all normal characters. I bumped up NPC wealth to keep them on par with PCs. (Not quite, but close. NPCs have 50% the wealth of an equal PC.)

It is good you seperated them.

 

[CRGreathouse]

My system? The Asgard magazine article is the old system remember!

Sorry, I was talking about the system Anubis posted above, not your system. I should have quoted him...

If you pick out a dozen monsters I will give you the CRs for them.

Actually, tht would be quite useful: it would give a baseline for comparison. What I actually want is your ELs (ukEL), which are closer to what I call CRs (wotcCR).

Creature.........wotcCR
Vrok....................13
Nightwing...........14
Nalfeshnee.........16
Nightcrawler.......18
Formian queen.....18
Tarrasque...........20

Kelvezu...............18 (p. 60)
Bone ooze...........21
Phoenix...............24
Dread linnorm......25
Mountain giant....26
Fiendwurm..........28

What I really want to see if the "CRs" as you use them, regardless of your system... but using the system I'll try to rate the tarrasque:
6+16+6+4+.5+2.5+4+2+1.5 = ukCR 42.5 => ukEL 25

Is this right?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

I changed my mind about the CR 10 Young Black Dragon NOT because of the Fire Giant argument, but because I did a comparison. A Young Black Dragon IS NOT CR 10.

Evidently you do not have the same strength of conviction with your own methods as I do with mine.

Don't make me take you to Fight Club to prove it. A normal Level 10 party would mash a Young Black Dragon with little difficulty, as others here have pointed out. The thing is actually only about CR 6.

This is the same mistake most people make. They think that CR denotes the measure of a tough fight - when it really represents a moderate encounter that the party should win using only 20-25% of their resources.

On a side note, an Ettin should be CR 9, being twice as powerful as a Hill Giant and all.

Don't be silly now.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello CRGreathouse mate!

***

Actually theres a small mistake in the CR/EL article. Under size it should read:

+0.5/size above Medium

***

I was testing a rule change on Size (whereby damage doubles per size category) and left it in by mistake.

Also Augmented Criticals should be CR +1.

I have made all the necessary changes and they will be in the formatted (free) pdf version available next week.

Sorry, I was talking about the system Anubis posted above, not your system. I should have quoted him...

No harm done!

Actually, tht would be quite useful: it would give a baseline for comparison. What I actually want is your ELs (ukEL), which are closer to what I call CRs (wotcCR).

Creature.........wotcCR
Vrok....................13
Nightwing...........14
Nalfeshnee.........16
Nightcrawler.......18
Formian queen.....18
Tarrasque...........20

Kelvezu...............18 (p. 60)
Bone ooze...........21
Phoenix...............24
Dread linnorm......25
Mountain giant....26
Fiendwurm..........28

Vrock..................CR 15 = EL 18
Nightwing...........CR 24 = EL 21
Nalfeshnee.........CR 20 = EL 20
Nightcrawler.......CR 33 = EL 23
Formian queen...CR 23 = EL 21
Tarrasque...........CR 43 = EL 25

Kelvezu...............CR 22 = EL 20
Bone ooze...........CR 24 = EL 21
Phoenix...............CR 24 = EL 21
Dread linnorm......CR 37 = EL 24
Mountain giant....CR 24 = EL 21
Fiendwurm..........CR 25 = EL 21

What I really want to see if the "CRs" as you use them, regardless of your system... but using the system I'll try to rate the tarrasque:
6+16+6+4+.5+2.5+4+2+1.5 = ukCR 42.5 => ukEL 25

Is this right?

Tarrasque:

HD = +16
Size = +2
AC = +3
Attacks = +0.5
SA = +3 (Augmented Criticals +1)
SQ = +12.5 (Carapace +1.5)
AS = +6

Total CR 43 = EL 25

 

[Xylix]

Evidently you do not have the same strength of conviction with your own methods as I do with mine.

The scientific method is the only proven method to result in consistent highly succesfull results. This method operates be constantly revaluating its own presumptions.

If you want your method to be a good CR measurement you will have to do the same. Having conviction is good when standing before the players. Having conviction is good when presenting your ideas. Having so much conviction that you don't reanalyzing them on a discussion on that particular topic is very bad.

If you aren't reanlyzing them you don't have a place in a dicussion pertaining specifically to reanlysis. That said, it does not mean YOUR end anyalysis might differ from others.

This is the same mistake most people make. They think that CR denotes the measure of a tough fight - when it really represents a moderate encounter that the party should win using only 20-25% of their resources.

As it was a single figher was using 90% of his resources.

This means two fighers killing the creature twice as fast, and having double hp would use 25% of their resources.

Following the same idea a party of four would use 6%. That is not a challenge according to the DM's manual....

Now remember those where SIMPLE fighers, well built ones might be even more dangerous, and as such the Black dragon would be even less effective.

Or for most players. A Young black dragon is a challenge for a party of two fighters, that means you need to drop the CR 2 to 4 points. How much varies upon tests, and special abilities. I can't say what for sure, no lower than CR 6 though, and no higher than CR 8. Otherwise it will be no danger at all.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again Xylix!

The scientific method is the only proven method to result in consistent highly succesful results.

Absolutely.

This method operates be constantly revaluating its own presumptions.

If you want your method to be a good CR measurement you will have to do the same. Having conviction is good when standing before the players. Having conviction is good when presenting your ideas. Having so much conviction that you don't reanalyzing them on a discussion on that particular topic is very bad.

If you aren't reanlyzing them you don't have a place in a dicussion pertaining specifically to reanlysis. That said, it does not mean YOUR end anyalysis might differ from others.

The number of facts in determining CR and EL are thin on the ground; in fact there are only two:

CR ~ +1 Class Level = +1 CR

EL ~ Doubling the number of equal opponents adds +2 EL

What I have done is ascertained, firstly, how other factors affect CR, and secondly the relationship between CR and EL.

These results are always going to be somewhat subjective but (as I have said many times) its more important to acknowledge that such a system is needed rather than debate the minutiae of the system itself.

As it was a single figher was using 90% of his resources.

This means two fighers killing the creature twice as fast, and having double hp would use 25% of their resources.

Following the same idea a party of four would use 6%. That is not a challenge according to the DM's manual....

Now remember those where SIMPLE fighers, well built ones might be even more dangerous, and as such the Black dragon would be even less effective.

Or for most players. A Young black dragon is a challenge for a party of two fighters, that means you need to drop the CR 2 to 4 points. How much varies upon tests, and special abilities. I can't say what for sure, no lower than CR 6 though, and no higher than CR 8. Otherwise it will be no danger at all.

A single 9th-level Fighter will probably be CR 10 (remember I factor ability scores into CR).

 

[Xylix]

Challenge rating is designed so that a 4 person party of a level equal to the challenge ratting will use up 20-25% of their resources. (one presumes renuable resources)


That is how Challenge ratting is defined. If you wish to define it as : Character level +1, or those creatures of comparible power. That is fine.

However, you are using both definitions, and both are obviously wrong as Character Level +1 does not produce a Challenge for a party of four characters of equal level to the challenge rating.

As such one definition must be dumped. I keep the original because that is a useful tool in determining how dangerous the encounter is the the player, which is what Challenge Rating is used in operation. I through the other out because it obviously does not relate.

What Character level = in CR needs to be determined on the definition offered.

Equally so does EL +X need to be determined on if it truely matches the expected challenge when you double the number of people. They gave their challenge figuring it worked fine, and it does in some senarios, perhaps in those where the creature had correct, or possibly already incorrect CR.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Xylix!

Challenge rating is designed so that a 4 person party of a level equal to the challenge ratting will use up 20-25% of their resources. (one presumes renuable resources)

That is how Challenge rating is defined.

True...however the fact that ability scores are not (officially) factored into CR is an obvious flaw.

Unless you wish to try and argue to the contrary.

If you wish to define it as : Character level +1, or those creatures of comparible power. That is fine.

I define it as character level + 0.5 for every 5 points of ability scores above 10.

eg. a 9th-level character with Str 15 and Con 15 is CR (+1) 10.

If you want a more detailed (and pedantic) analysis:

1. Total all ability scores.
2. Reduce by 60.
3. Divide by 10 to get the CR increase.

However, you are using both definitions, and both are obviously wrong as Character Level +1 does not produce a Challenge for a party of four characters of equal level to the challenge rating.

I never related that it was character level +1 (that was your incorrect interpretation of my system based on an offhand generalism I made).

As such one definition must be dumped. I keep the original because that is a useful tool in determining how dangerous the encounter is the the player, which is what Challenge Rating is used in operation. I through the other out because it obviously does not relate.

Feel free to retain the flawed core rule.

What Character level = in CR needs to be determined on the definition offered.

Already done.

Equally so does EL +X need to be determined on if it truely matches the expected challenge when you double the number of people. They gave their challenge figuring it worked fine, and it does in some senarios, perhaps in those where the creature had correct, or possibly already incorrect CR.

The problems with EL are far more noticeable at high level but that does not excuse possible problems at lower level.

 

[Anubis]

Evidently you do not have the same strength of conviction with your own methods as I do with mine.

I'm simply willing to admit when I've made a mistake, something you haven't done much of lately. You used to actually listen to other people, but that seems to have changed at this point.

I am interested in seeing your whole system, though, because I do think SOME parts of it are valid. If anything, I can use what I think works and ditch the rest.

This is the same mistake most people make. They think that CR denotes the measure of a tough fight - when it really represents a moderate encounter that the party should win using only 20-25% of their resources.

I meant what I said. I doubt a Level 10 party would even use 10% of its resources against a Young Black Dragon. A Level 10 Wizard could easily have a Wand of Magic Missile Lv.9 that could do an easy 17 points of damage per round. The fighter would likely have a bow to use against the dragon if it flies, as would a rogue. The cleric has a number of abilities to choose from, and a single Searing Light would likely hit for 22 points of damage. All things considered the dragon would easily take over 50 points of the damage in the first round alone, using only ONE spell, ONE charge from a wand, and TWO arrows. Hardly 20% of the party's resources.

I contest that a Level 10 party would EASILY crush the Young Black Dragon, if anything because the thing's good abilities have yet to develop. Even the breath weapon does a mmere 6d4 points of damage, which the rogue is likely to avoid altogether with Evasion. The others can survive easily as the dragon can likely target only one per round due to the line breath, which is crappy breath.

Don't be silly now.

Silly? The Ettin gets twice as many attacks at damn near the same attack bonus, which is likely to hit any ACs at that level anyway. Damage is nearly as high, but when coupled with double the attacks, it's devastating.

 

[Xylix]

True...however the fact that ability scores are not (officially) factored into CR is an obvious flaw.

Unless you wish to try and argue to the contrary.

I stick with the standard definition, and redifine the rest of CR around that. Thus if ability scores are pertaininet to a 20-25% resources using ecounter I factor them in.

However 1,000,000 Int 1st level fighter with 10s on everything else does not have a pertainent stat, except perhaps the increased skill points, which is a minor issue.

As such it would have very little influence on its CR. Once could say I factor in ability scores indirectly.

I define it as character level + 0.5 for every 5 points of ability scores above 10.

eg. a 9th-level character with Str 15 and Con 15 is CR (+1) 10.

If you want a more detailed (and pedantic) analysis:

1. Total all ability scores.
2. Reduce by 60.
3. Divide by 10 to get the CR increase.

That 1st level fither is not a CR ~16,600 encounter. Despite his monsterous intelligence.

Instead of factoring ability scores you proably should factor in the things ability scores effect.

Feel free to retain the flawed core rule.

There is not merely a choice between your system and the core rules. I see a problem when in cases eyeballing the creatures gives me a more accurate analysis. I am merely pointing out that your system is generating major flaws in hopes that by doing so that you will produce a system accurate enough that it supasses my eyeballing method.

When that happens I will use your system.

The problems with EL are far more noticeable at high level but that does not excuse possible problems at lower level.

I agree.