DRM limitations (merged with "why DRM sucks")
- Thread starter HellHound
- Start date
DaveStebbins
First Post
Yup. That's the one.Axegrrl said:
http://www.drivethrurpg.comAxegrrl said:
One capable of running Acrobat Reader v6, which I'm told is only OSX.
Roudi
First Post
Here's what I'd like to see: the stats.
I'm thinking, somewhere, this whole DRM thing was pitched to a boardroom full of people who thought it was a good enough idea to implement. Ideally, whoever pitched this idea backed it up with numbers and facts. I want to see those numbers, if they exist.
Just how much in sales do companies estimate they lose to piracy? Are there any hard figures for product piracy? Has DRM been shown to reduce these numbers or increase sales before this?
If these numbers exist, or if anyone has a credible ballpark figure, I'd like to see it. I'd really hope that some good hard numbers were used to justify DTRPG's approach rather than an uninformed "RAH RAH PRACY BAD" attitude.
(P.S., I'm not trying to imply that IS the attitude DTRPG has. Apologies for potential confusion.)
I'm thinking, somewhere, this whole DRM thing was pitched to a boardroom full of people who thought it was a good enough idea to implement. Ideally, whoever pitched this idea backed it up with numbers and facts. I want to see those numbers, if they exist.
Just how much in sales do companies estimate they lose to piracy? Are there any hard figures for product piracy? Has DRM been shown to reduce these numbers or increase sales before this?
If these numbers exist, or if anyone has a credible ballpark figure, I'd like to see it. I'd really hope that some good hard numbers were used to justify DTRPG's approach rather than an uninformed "RAH RAH PRACY BAD" attitude.
(P.S., I'm not trying to imply that IS the attitude DTRPG has. Apologies for potential confusion.)
Jonathan Nolan
First Post
Honestly don't see the problems.
Hi,
I don't see the problems with DRM. If it is honestly hopeless as a copy protection system DriveThru and the publishers there will abandon it. If it has some potential but isn't yet successful I would imagine it will continue in development for some time.
I am mre concerned at the ad hominem attacks. I feel that part of the hostility is due to some people having a rather fixed view of how the game design and publishing world, especially for d20, was going to evolve. Now a new variable that these people had not anticipated has appeared and it has caused them some disquiet. But change is inevitable. DriveThru is just another facet of change. Its appearance puts RPGNOW on notice that there is now competition, and this can only be a good thing for everyone.
If the RPGNOW lobby view is correct then DriveThru will sicken and die. I personally find it hard to imagine that this will occur. Firstly because DriveThru have already in my personal experience displayed professionalism and dedication in the normal business meaning of those terms. Secondly, the people behind the concept are spending their own (and presumably the bank's) money. When you do that for a proper business, even one in an industry that you presumably love, you have to make clear-headed decisions.
DRM is something that will divide people critically but the underlying philosophy - that of trying to protect the consumer AND the producer of the item - is one that I and all my staff are 100% dedicated to. We publish print and PDF as well as multimedia now and we can ill afford to overlook any possible means of lowering piracy. Piracy engenders not just simple illegal copying but also a whole attitude of surfing and stealing that is counterproductive to web-supported business of all kinds.
Lest some crazy poster make the accusation I would like to make it clear now that I am in no way shape or form associated with DriveThru or Adobe. I assume however that I am still entitled to hold my view and voice them here as part of the discussion.
-J
Hi,
I don't see the problems with DRM. If it is honestly hopeless as a copy protection system DriveThru and the publishers there will abandon it. If it has some potential but isn't yet successful I would imagine it will continue in development for some time.
I am mre concerned at the ad hominem attacks. I feel that part of the hostility is due to some people having a rather fixed view of how the game design and publishing world, especially for d20, was going to evolve. Now a new variable that these people had not anticipated has appeared and it has caused them some disquiet. But change is inevitable. DriveThru is just another facet of change. Its appearance puts RPGNOW on notice that there is now competition, and this can only be a good thing for everyone.
If the RPGNOW lobby view is correct then DriveThru will sicken and die. I personally find it hard to imagine that this will occur. Firstly because DriveThru have already in my personal experience displayed professionalism and dedication in the normal business meaning of those terms. Secondly, the people behind the concept are spending their own (and presumably the bank's) money. When you do that for a proper business, even one in an industry that you presumably love, you have to make clear-headed decisions.
DRM is something that will divide people critically but the underlying philosophy - that of trying to protect the consumer AND the producer of the item - is one that I and all my staff are 100% dedicated to. We publish print and PDF as well as multimedia now and we can ill afford to overlook any possible means of lowering piracy. Piracy engenders not just simple illegal copying but also a whole attitude of surfing and stealing that is counterproductive to web-supported business of all kinds.
Lest some crazy poster make the accusation I would like to make it clear now that I am in no way shape or form associated with DriveThru or Adobe. I assume however that I am still entitled to hold my view and voice them here as part of the discussion.
-J
Flyspeck23
First Post
True to some degree. The problem: it might become an industry standard (and for that it doesn't even need to be effective).Jonathan Nolan said:
Let me assure you: I haven't got a problem with DTRPG as a competition for RPGNow.com - that's fair and just, and I respect any publisher's decision to sell there. It's the DRM that ticks me off, and the fact that the "big guys" are starting to use it.
Changes indeed, but not changes to the better. This has nothing to do with competition in my POV.
DTRPG can dominate the ePublishing market for all I care, and I don't wish them to fail. I just wish the DRM would fail.
Btw, I've yet to see anything like a "RPGNOW lobby view". First, there's hardly such a "lobby". Second, the people speaking out for RPGNow.com seem to vary in opinion - not all are doomsayers, for instance.
In what way is DRM protecting the customer?
Granted, piracy is a problem. But the DRM, once cracked, makes pirated copies superior to the original eBook. That's one of the reasons it IMHO doesn't make sense.
There are other ways to prevent (or at least disencourage) piracy - product support for instance. And that's also in the best interest of the customer.
IMHO it's bad style to start insulting other posters (naming them "RPGNow lobby", for instance), and then demand freedom of speech for yourself (and obviously not so for "crazy poster"). Even more so for a first posting on these boards.
Cergorach
The Laughing One
DRM is 0% about protecting the consumer and 100% of protecting the producer. The consumer doesn't get any added value due to DRM, the producer does. You might argue that some products wouldn't be available without DRM, that might be partly true, but that doesn't explain away the electronic business that has functioned without DRM for decades.Jonathan Nolan said:
Maybe, just maybe producers are looking in the wrong place and should evolve rather then fortify their market position. DRM is an 'ancient' state of thinking (although others would say otherwise). The only danger i see in the "'piracy' is ok" feel that a lot of people seem to have is that a lot of them are not spending any money in the branches where they can get stuff for 'free', which is just about any media.
DRM won't stop piracy, the fact that DTRPG made a whole lot of books available in a digital format that weren't available before just made the whole piracy scene a happier place. As we speak there is a group working on getting the data of the DRMed pdf file intact into a non-DRMed file. Current methods mutilate the selectability of the text (copying produces gibberisch). DRM will stop a lot of people from buying stuff legally, because they are (rightly so) afraid for their privacy and their ability to use the product as they see fit (reading it on a pc that will never have a connection to the internet for example).
I personally don't care, but that's because i'm confident that i'll be able to remove the DRMing in the next couple of months through a third party tool. I can already extract all the text and images intact within a day (no 10 day limit for me) of purchasing the file, it's just a lot of work for me to do and stops me from buying more then i do now. Malhavoc made a good decission by making their files available as non-DRMed files.
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Jonathan Nolan
First Post
DRM etc.
Depending what happens soon we (my firm) may have to decide on the DRM issue. If we have to provide it for our PDFs I will be a little worried because personally, it is not something I want to see spread until or unless DRM is much better served both in terms of
1. number of clicks to set the damned thing up for a customer, and
2. public perception.
However, ancient or not, stupid or not, DRM is part of the ongoing struggle for big(ger) business to adapt to online sales. Not an easy process for anyone at first instance. DRM may die a slow and agonising death but I personally think that something resembling it will continue to reappear, since it is such an obvious solution (whether or not it is a viable genuine solution at present).
One of my own biggest concerns with it is when I tried it out as a customer I ended up at a Microsoft site littered with nagging adverts for god knows what. If it was an automated process that lifted your details from your point of sale (WITH YOUR EXPRESS PERMISSION of course) it would be quicker and easier. DRM could be prettied up and smartened up, definitely. We get a lot of first-time gamers, including a lot of women, girls and young boys, buying our stuff and I know that our customers are pretty leery about overly intensive online purchasing requirements. However, if it is all seen to be in a good cause, maybe perceptions will shift. And maybe not.
Things do seem to be calming down about DriveThru and the DRM feature, which is good, because they are professional in their approach and that's something that got a bit lost during the first rush of blood to people's heads except in a negative way - the whole outcry over the press releases making it sound like RPGNOW or its client businesses weren't professional or that professionalism per se was the be all and end all. My take on that: ish kabibble. Let's get on with producing games, playing games and having as much fun as possible whenever possible.
Depending what happens soon we (my firm) may have to decide on the DRM issue. If we have to provide it for our PDFs I will be a little worried because personally, it is not something I want to see spread until or unless DRM is much better served both in terms of
1. number of clicks to set the damned thing up for a customer, and
2. public perception.
However, ancient or not, stupid or not, DRM is part of the ongoing struggle for big(ger) business to adapt to online sales. Not an easy process for anyone at first instance. DRM may die a slow and agonising death but I personally think that something resembling it will continue to reappear, since it is such an obvious solution (whether or not it is a viable genuine solution at present).
One of my own biggest concerns with it is when I tried it out as a customer I ended up at a Microsoft site littered with nagging adverts for god knows what. If it was an automated process that lifted your details from your point of sale (WITH YOUR EXPRESS PERMISSION of course) it would be quicker and easier. DRM could be prettied up and smartened up, definitely. We get a lot of first-time gamers, including a lot of women, girls and young boys, buying our stuff and I know that our customers are pretty leery about overly intensive online purchasing requirements. However, if it is all seen to be in a good cause, maybe perceptions will shift. And maybe not.
Things do seem to be calming down about DriveThru and the DRM feature, which is good, because they are professional in their approach and that's something that got a bit lost during the first rush of blood to people's heads except in a negative way - the whole outcry over the press releases making it sound like RPGNOW or its client businesses weren't professional or that professionalism per se was the be all and end all. My take on that: ish kabibble. Let's get on with producing games, playing games and having as much fun as possible whenever possible.
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