Dropping AoO?

[d12]

Has anyone here dropped AoO? What were the results? Did it work well? Did you have to change other rules? Which ones? Does it make the rogue's backstab ability too easy to use since they can flank with impunity?

 

[Li Shenron]

Has anyone here dropped AoO? What were the results? Did it work well? Did you have to change other rules? Which ones? Does it make the rogue's backstab ability too easy to use since they can flank with impunity?

I skipped AoOs in the very first evening of playing 3rd edition D&D, but since the second evening I always used them normally. It dropped them only because the players were all new to 3ed and were already busy with the basics of combat, and we wanted to play!

It was ok at the time, but I can't say how it would work after a while. Spellcasters and ranged combatants would have an easier time, but in general they can get away with 5ft steps, at least until they meet someone with reach.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The original d20StarWars had no AoO and worked OK.

Rules changes:

1. You cannot make a movement that would incur an AoO or perform an action that would incur an AoO. i.e. once you have moved into someones threatened area you cannot move further. You cannot drink a potion while in melee range of someone but have to 5ft step away first. Approaching targets with reach has to be done in 5ft steps etc.

2. The Mobility feat has a different effect - it allows you to continue moving through threatened areas with no problem. (tumble can still be used, but this has no chance of failing and so is superior)

3. The Combat Reflexes feat disappears since there is no point to it.

4. If you are in a threatened area you MUST cast defensively. You cannot cast a spell without doing this.

There may be a couple of other special cases, and you may need to adjudicate twinky reach "ready" actions (although in truth it is more difficult to attack something with reach than D&D makes it!) but basically that is all you need to do.

I think it would make combats simpler and quicker, and wouldn't harm the game much at all.

Cheers

 

[Li Shenron]

The original d20StarWars had no AoO and worked OK.

Rules changes:

1. You cannot make a movement that would incur an AoO or perform an action that would incur an AoO. i.e. once you have moved into someones threatened area you cannot move further. You cannot drink a potion while in melee range of someone but have to 5ft step away first. Approaching targets with reach has to be done in 5ft steps etc.

...

I think it would make combats simpler and quicker, and wouldn't harm the game much at all.

Ugh! Does it really work with these rules? Does it mean that two opponents flanking you are enough to prevent any way of escape?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Ugh! Does it really work with these rules? Does it mean that two opponents flanking you are enough to prevent any way of escape?

Yes it really works!

In the case of two opponents flanking you it means that you can't just run away straight away, but unless they are flanking you in a featureless plain you can take a diagonal 5ft step to put yourself in a position where it is difficult or impossible for the flanker to move around and get in a flanking position once more, then try to escape later. It is bad if you are outnumbered and/or without allies and/or can't get your back to a wall.

Basically it means that you are a lot more careful about not getting flanked.

 

[Li Shenron]

... but unless they are flanking you in a featureless plain you can take a diagonal 5ft step to put yourself in a position where it is difficult or impossible for the flanker to move around and get in a flanking position once more, then try to escape later.

That sounds to me that you have to put yourself to a corner to avoid being flanked, which indeed means that you still can't escape!

It must be my idiosyncracy with rules that just say "you can't" that makes me wish to stay away from this variant...

 

[d12]

Here's what I'm considering doing.

1. AoO don't exist. This means that combats should take less time because players won't be sitting there thinking of ways to avoid the AoO.

2. Because this change makes it too easy to flank, flanking doesn't exist either.

3. Rogue can feint as a move equivalent action at some medium level.....

 

[Plane Sailing]

That sounds to me that you have to put yourself to a corner to avoid being flanked, which indeed means that you still can't escape!

It must be my idiosyncracy with rules that just say "you can't" that makes me wish to stay away from this variant...

It is basically the "zone of control" rule that has been part of wargames for decades. It has worked well for board wargames and reflects in a simple fashion what goes on IRL. It can work just as well in an RPG IMO.

As potential benefits nobody has to explain how getting an AoO on someone who lets their guard down allows you to cleave onto someone who was still fully on guard and get an extra attack on them

 

[AeroDm]

Are AoO truly so hard that it is worth pulling them? We used them from the outset and only got it wrong a few times and now they are like clockwork.

If you do pull them then tumble, mobility, combat reflexes, and i am sure a few i am not thinking of become more or less worthless. LIkewise, feats that have these as prerequisites become far less useful. All optional combat maneuvers become easier as they don't provoke AoO, but the feats now become worse.

Removing flank harms the rogue and even allowing feint in means that duel wielding or iterative attack rogues are drastically less powerful. The ramifications are probably limitless...

 

[Plane Sailing]

If you do pull them then tumble, mobility, combat reflexes, and i am sure a few i am not thinking of become more or less worthless. LIkewise, feats that have these as prerequisites become far less useful. All optional combat maneuvers become easier as they don't provoke AoO, but the feats now become worse.

You didn't even read my post, did you?