Dropping favored classes and mutliclassing restrictions

[haiiro]

I've been considering eliminating the favored class rules and multiclass experience penalties from my next campaign. Additionally, I am thinking about allowing multiclass characters to apply skill points to any of their classes when they level up, rather than forcing them to choose skills as the class they level up in. I am concerned about possible problems with making these changes, and I'd love to hear what you guys have to offer on this topic.

My current perspective on these items, in order:

Favored class rules - I like the concept of favored classes, but I wish there was a different way to implement them. If multiclass XP restrictions are removed, then favored classes have to go as well; I think I can live with that.

Eliminating favored classes, however, weakens humans and half-elves from a game balance standpoint, which is not desirable. I'm not sure if it weakens them enough to be problematic (humans in particular will remain an excellent choice), but I'd like to provide some other small benefit to compensate for this change.

Multiclass XP restrictions - As I understand it, the main reason these are in place is to prevent players from taking a level or two of several classes (particularly more front-loaded classes, like the core ranger) to maximize their benefits. While I agree with this on some levels, I think overall multiclassing often weakens a character's overall power level in exchange for an increase in their versatility.

Assuming a campaign starts at low or fairly low levels (6th or under, let's say) and is intended to progress to high levels, multiclassing seems particularly problematic for most spellcasters (who lose their higher level spells) and for classes with special ability progressions that feature high level abilities (like monks). Even for martial classes, the loss of BAB and other minor changes add up, although there are exceptions (for example: a fighter planning on wielding two weapons and wearing light armor has no reason not to take a level of the core ranger). I think that this more than balances out the benefits gained by multiclassing.

Multiclass skill points - I've never really understood why this rule exists, but I'm not sure what the potential repercussions of changing it might be. As I see it, a fighter/rogue who levels up as a fighter can just as easily be training rogue skills while honing the martial abilities he learns as a fighter -- that's the whole point of multiclassing, IMO.

On the other hand, perhaps this rule is also in place to prevent players from taking a level of rogue (for example) just to have access to the rogue's sterling and varied skill selection and trapfinding abilities. This sounds like it could be problematic.

There is a good thread in this forum that touches on some of these topics (jerichothebard's "Favored Classes - Use them?" -- http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44516), but the poster's original question is more specific to his campaign and I don't want to hijack the thread. I haven't seen any other recent discussion of these topics, but I apologize if I have missed something.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Spatula]

One way to look at the class skills is that they are part of the "package" represented by taking a level in that class. For example, take a level of fighter, and you've been training in the physical and combat arts: this gives you 1d10 HP, good Fort save, +1 BAB, possible combat feat, and... fighter class skills. The skills are as much a part of the class as the HD. In other words, a character's skills aren't what the character does as a hobby, those skills are what the character trains at to improve in his/her abilities in a particular class.

What about exclusive skills?

On potential snag is that prestige classes with skill requirements may be easier to qualify for if some of those skills would normally have been cross-class for the characer (single-class fighters that want to become duelists, for example, need a lot of cross-class ranks in Tumble). And classes with good class skill lists (rogue, bard, ranger) become effectively "frontloaded" in the skill dept.

As to the favored class thing, I don't think it's a big deal. It removes one of the few reasons to play a half-elf, but that's more of an indictment on the half-elf's other ablities than anything. Seems to me that the favored classes are mainly there to push the demi-human stereotypes. I can't really imagine a DM punishing a player with an XP penalty for getting his levels out of whack - "okay, everyone gets 1000 xp except Smithy who only gets 800, cause he's an elven cleric with a single level of fighter." Just doesn't seem right.

 

[haiiro]

In other words, a character's skills aren't what the character does as a hobby, those skills are what the character trains at to improve in his/her abilities in a particular class.

Given that there will always be class skills that a character does not train in when they level up (not every fighter takes points in swim, for instance), I don't think that the tie between class skills and class abilities is all that close. How does taking another rank of bluff help a rogue gain another die of sneak attack damage?

What about exclusive skills?

I hadn't considered exclusive skills. Offhand, I think I'd keep exclusive skills on the current system: you can only spend points gained in the class they are exclusive to when raising them.

On potential snag is that prestige classes with skill requirements may be easier to qualify for if some of those skills would normally have been cross-class for the characer (single-class fighters that want to become duelists, for example, need a lot of cross-class ranks in Tumble). And classes with good class skill lists (rogue, bard, ranger) become effectively "frontloaded" in the skill dept.

Single class fighters wouldn't be affected by the changes I've proposed -- they'd still have to buy cross-class ranks in tumble to qualify for the duelist PrC. Fighters with one level of rogue, however, would be able to get into that PrC more easily. I'll have to think about that one -- I hadn't really considered PrC qualifications as they relate to multiclassing and skill restrictions.

 

[SylverFlame]

I'm all for altering the effects of favoured classes. I never agreed with them in the first place. But, like you said, half-elves get hurt, and it is a painful snag for them. I think that if you put something in place to benefit them at creation than that'll make it okay. What about one of a list of feats like a fighter gets? It's pushing into the human area, but with the nix-ing of cross-class skills you propose humans become MASSIVELY powerful with a +1 skill point per level. So, picking from a few limited feats isn't that bad for the ol'half-elf, and they'd only get the bonus once.

As for the skill points... I don't know what to do. I'm planning on spending the summer revamping the skill system and see what I get.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I dropped favoured classes a while back and then compensated humans and half-elves.

Both of them get to choose a non-exclusive skill to add to the class list of their class as at first level. Both get to have a racial +1 to this skill as well.

It should be noted that none of us are multi-class rapists so we don't need the xp penalty dangling over us imo.

 

[haiiro]

It's pushing into the human area, but with the nix-ing of cross-class skills you propose humans become MASSIVELY powerful with a +1 skill point per level.

I'm not thinking about getting rid of the concept of class skills and cross-class skills -- just removing the restriction on how multiclass characters can spend their skill points. I can't tell from your post whether or not you mean this change (to multiclass skill point spending) will make humans more powerful, or whether you misinterpreted my original post.

Both of them get to choose a non-exclusive skill to add to the class list of their class as at first level. Both get to have a racial +1 to this skill as well.

This is a neat little fix -- sort of like giving them most of a feat (Cosmopolitan, from the FRCS). I'm curious about one thing, though: what's the rationale behind the racial +1 bonus to this skill?

I like this idea quite a bit, and it seems like it would mesh well with another I've seen proposed on the boards: letting every PC swap a class skill for a different non-exclusive skill when created. I've been considering that one as well.

 

[LeifVignirsson]

Of course, there is always the train of thought that says that if a character choses a class, that SHOULD be their favored class. If they Multiclass, then they cannot branch off too much. You can't have a rogue that also takes class levels in Fighter and Wizard or else that is not really helping the player in developing the character and it doesn't help the DM in his game to compensate for every change. Of course, that may be the only way for the character to really develop, but it should be discouraged or at least disccused between DM and player before a decision like that is made concrete.

So, if Biff is a 3rd level rogue and takes a 1st level fighter OR 1st level mage... no problem. There are figher rogues and rogue mages all over. But, if at the next level Biff takes a level of cleric to make him a 3/1/1, then that really might put a wrench into the plans and the way that character developes.

Naturally, that is one man's view, but it makes it so that if someone feels that they cannot really RP that character anymore that they can retire that PC and move on to another PC...

 

[SylverFlame]

haiiro

I'm not thinking about getting rid of the concept of class skills and cross-class skills -- just removing the restriction on how multiclass characters can spend their skill points.

originally posted by haiiro

What you plan on doing makes each bonus skill point worth that much more. With the way level works right now, a level in fighter means that for that level only fighter skills are considered class skills. If you have a fighter/wizard/rogue and make all of the skills on those lists class skills for that character at each level then they have a lot of "class skills' that only take one point.

Throw in a human who, on average, will have one more point for skills at each level than any other member of the same class. This means that a human (already a master at skills) gets even better since they recieve a one skill point bonus at every level.

There reason I said that the bonus feat for a half-elf was "muscling in" was that the bonus feat is another human-specific thing but becomes negligable as a one time bonus when they recieve 20 skill points (over twenty levels) for free in this system.

As for my opinion, I think it's moot now because I really like FreeTheSlaves idea of a free 'class skill'. It's interesting and follows the theme.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Oh I just gave the racial class skill a little bonus so as to differentiate it from the universal class skill that every character imc gets. I was thinking of clipping the bonus for humans but that struck me as just too picky.

 

[haiiro]

What you plan on doing makes each bonus skill point worth that much more. With the way level works right now, a level in fighter means that for that level only fighter skills are considered class skills. If you have a fighter/wizard/rogue and make all of the skills on those lists class skills for that character at each level then they have a lot of "class skills' that only take one point.

The more I think about it, the more I think you're probably right about this. Hrm.