Drow and level adjustment

[Aust Diamondew]

+3 or higher, just to keep them out of the game (but keep them at CR+1). They're a part of the DM's toolbox, not a PC race.

They're a vile matriarchal chaotic evil society. Why is it that every one you meet is a chaotic good male (with two swords, natch)?

Then don't allow them in the game. Don't gimp characters for playing them. I've seen 2 drow PCs over the last couple years. One was a male wizard, the other a male sorcerer/cleric of eurythnal/MT. May be its because no one in our group is too big on FR but we haven't got a single drizzt clone.

I voted +1. At +2 at low levels their main benefit (spell resistance) isn't terribly useful because not a lot of spell slinging generally goes on. At high levels anymore than +1 LA just hurts too much in HD (and the associated benefits) to be worth it.

Drow ability modifiers are pretty good too and darkness/faerie fire is a pretty good combo for spell-like abilities.

 

[Seeten]

Played a Drow in a Gestalt, where Drow shine, since ya can stick their 2 la on one side. Nice as a full spellcaster.

 

[Sejs]

Well let's see here.

They have higher stat mods, so yes, they should.

They have a clutch of spell-like abilities, that unlike the gnome are more than just parlour tricks, so yes, they should.

They have spell resistance, so yes, they should.

With the standard battery of drow abilities, they should have an LA or +2. If you want to have a drow elf that doesn't have a level adjustment, just define drow as elves with a different culture and different pigmentation than normal elves. All of the society, none of the superpowers, none of the level adjustment. It's not hard.

 

[Nifft]

Played a Drow in a Gestalt, where Drow shine, since ya can stick their 2 la on one side. Nice as a full spellcaster.

Not according to any rule I've read. Where exactly do you come up with the idea that -2 hit dice equals -2 hit dice on one side?

-- N

 

[WarlockLord]

I voted +2. The stat bonuses (+2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Cha) heavily outweigh stat penalties (-2 Con). They get the standard set of elven racial traits, some minor spell-like abilities, 120 ft. darkvision, and spell resistance (which is their biggest bonus, really). And all this is offset with light blindness. So, I stick with +2, but I also think LA buy-off rules (from Unearthed Arcana) should be used. Those extra abilities are signifficant at lower levels, but get less so as the character advances (note that even when the character gets rid of LAs, he's still lagging behind in XP; a LA +1 character can just barely hit level 20 at the same time as his companions).

Also, LA can be situational. For example, a drow wizard fully deserves his +2 LA (he gets his racial abilities, and his +2 Int is a dream-come-true for wizards), while it might be a bit too much for a drow melee fighter or barbarian (racial abilities are nice, but the Con penalty and loss of two points of BAB and two levels of hp seems to outweigh that; drow archers are a different story, thought, especially underground (where they can make the best useof their superior darkvision)).

That being said, I think LAs of +3 should be used exclusively with creatures that posess both racial HD and signifficant racial abilities. For example, LA +3 is (IMO) definitely too high for a svirfneblin.

Regards.

Ok. I don't think the drow should have any LA.

1. The spell resistance isn't the be-all and end-all when it comes to spells. WoTC is flooding the game with conjuration attack spells that ignore it. The lesser orbs of (energy here) are available at first level, and most 1st level wizards know at least one. Also, it hinders beneficial spells targeted at you, unless you lower it.

They have a clutch of spell-like abilities, that unlike the gnome are more than just parlour tricks, so yes, they should.

2. The spell-like abilites are garbage. Darkness can grant concealment to your enemies, and blocks the use of faerie fire (useless on it's own) and dancing lights just is a 'parlour trick'. The gnome has it.

3. Darkvision 120 feet - ok. Everyone usually has light or a torch. Useful, but doesn't justify a level adjustment. Basic elven traits ok too, but I'd use a human over an elf anyday.

4. The abilites. +2 Dex, -2 Con...stop right there. Even though the +2 to spellcasting ability is good, the con penalty, when combined with the level adjustment, makes drow hideously weak. When I roll up a ECL 3 character with 4 or 5 hit points... he's as good as dead.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Ok. I don't think the drow should have any LA.

1. The spell resistance isn't the be-all and end-all when it comes to spells. WoTC is flooding the game with conjuration attack spells that ignore it. The lesser orbs of (energy here) are available at first level, and most 1st level wizards know at least one. Also, it hinders beneficial spells targeted at you, unless you lower it.

Of course not. However, it is a powerful defense. Furthermore, when discussing balance, it's helpful to stick to the core rules. Otherwise someone will find some silly drow racial feat that hurts game balance the same way the orb spells seem to.

I think in a core or core + X campaign, the SR is very good. It only seems to become a problem when a buddy is casting a healing spell on you. Otherwise, they shouldn't be buffing you in combat.

2. The spell-like abilites are garbage. Darkness can grant concealment to your enemies, and blocks the use of faerie fire (useless on it's own) and dancing lights just is a 'parlour trick'. The gnome has it.

On this I'll agree.

3. Darkvision 120 feet - ok. Everyone usually has light or a torch. Useful, but doesn't justify a level adjustment. Basic elven traits ok too, but I'd use a human over an elf anyday.

It's part of it, though, and actually it's quite useful for rogues. You can see your opponent when they can't see you, whether they're using darkvision or a torch.

4. The abilites. +2 Dex, -2 Con...stop right there. Even though the +2 to spellcasting ability is good, the con penalty, when combined with the level adjustment, makes drow hideously weak. When I roll up a ECL 3 character with 4 or 5 hit points... he's as good as dead.

Maybe you shouldn't start at the earliest level. Just because a drow is LA +2 doesn't mean you should be introducing a drow into a 3rd-level party. Be patient and wait. And on the note of lame Con, I'd like to point out that you can get a decent save DC increase out of that: +0.5 (as in +1 DC for half your levels). That's pretty good.

 

[Orius]

Something insanely unreasonably high, like +10.

Then no one would ever want to play one. And my life as a DM would be much easier.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Hmmm, viewed as the race in the MM, then +2 does seem abou right, though I would allow the rules for buying off the LA from Unearthed Arcana.

That said, none of the campaigns that I run even have Drow, and the Dark Elfs in them have the same racial abilities as any other elf.

The Auld Grump

 

[Sejs]

Ok. I don't think the drow should have any LA.

Let me ask you something, then.


Should Planetouched have an LA?

What about Goliaths?

 

[Nifft]

Ok. I don't think the drow should have any LA.

Fine. Go enjoy your game.

Clearly there are a lot of people who disagree, but we have no control over your game. So you can do what you like there.

Here, people want to know about balance vs. other races, while your argument seems to discount any ability that you can think of a counter-example for. That's kinda silly, since any ability has some limitations -- but having an ability (like SR) is better than not having it, even if it's not perfect. And quite specifically, Level Adjustment is a measure of how much better it is to have a group of abilities than not have them.

If you think -2 Con justifies +2 Dex, +2 Int and +2 Cha with no LA, just give that abiltiy set to all Elves. See how balanced that is.

Anyway, enjoy your game. -- N