Druid and Monk synergy
- Thread starter Trainz
- Start date
Mordane76
First Post
Your very statement contains a contradiction --
In most cases, IIRC, a character uses the best available damage and attack pattern. So, a druid/monk in wildshaped form would use the best number of attacks available to him (generally his flurry, but possibly a claw/claw/bite pattern from the animal if he's a lower level monk), and then the best possible damage available. In a flurry, I would say that a wildshaped druid/monk would have to use the "claw" damage of the animal, or the monk attack damage die, whichever is higher; while the bite damage might be better than the claw (and usually is), I think it's unrealistic for an animal to go "flurry of bites," even if it is a wildshaped druid/monk.
Or, you could rule that the animal form is unable to utilize the monk attack pattern, just as animal forms are generally unable to use most manufactured weapons because of limitations in their manual dexterity -- it would be reasonable, in most cases, to rule that an animal form is incapable of conducting a flurry of blows because of their body plan. The only place I could see a potential argument is in the the use of primate forms, like apes and dire apes, which obviously possess a very humanoid body plan.
Trainz said:
In most cases, IIRC, a character uses the best available damage and attack pattern. So, a druid/monk in wildshaped form would use the best number of attacks available to him (generally his flurry, but possibly a claw/claw/bite pattern from the animal if he's a lower level monk), and then the best possible damage available. In a flurry, I would say that a wildshaped druid/monk would have to use the "claw" damage of the animal, or the monk attack damage die, whichever is higher; while the bite damage might be better than the claw (and usually is), I think it's unrealistic for an animal to go "flurry of bites," even if it is a wildshaped druid/monk.
Or, you could rule that the animal form is unable to utilize the monk attack pattern, just as animal forms are generally unable to use most manufactured weapons because of limitations in their manual dexterity -- it would be reasonable, in most cases, to rule that an animal form is incapable of conducting a flurry of blows because of their body plan. The only place I could see a potential argument is in the the use of primate forms, like apes and dire apes, which obviously possess a very humanoid body plan.
Camarath
Pale Master Tarrasque
I do not believe that Natural Weapons can be used to make an Unarmed Strike or used in a Flurry of Blows since they are not Unarmed Strike or Monk Weapons. I think a Wildshaped Monk would still be able use Unarmed Strikes and Flurry of Blows if he wished but could not use his Natural Weapons when doing so.
Trainz
Explorer
Thanks for the info guys.
The only advantage I can see doing so is to use a wildshape's form for the strength boost or dex boost. Not worth it.
I asked this question because a player IMC is a druid and is considering dualclassing to monk. I didn't think it would be worth it, but I asked anyways...
The only advantage I can see doing so is to use a wildshape's form for the strength boost or dex boost. Not worth it.
I asked this question because a player IMC is a druid and is considering dualclassing to monk. I didn't think it would be worth it, but I asked anyways...
jgsugden
Legend
Flurry of blows, etc ... may not be used with a natural weapon gained via polymorph. It may be performed with an unarmed strike (a defined term in D&D meaning an unarmed attack turned into a manufactures/natural attack via the feat unarmed strike) or with a monk weapon. A natural weapon gained via polymorph is not an unarmed strike - it is a natural weapon.
That does not mean that the druid can not do a flurry of blows while in animal form. It can. It just doesn't use the attack values of the natural weapons. It instead uses the monk damage dice for natural attacks (modified for size). So, a medium monk of 10th level that normally deals d10 damage with an unarmed strike that is polymorphed into a large creature may make unarmed strikes for 2d8 damage (d10 increases to 2d8 with a size increase) and use the flurry of blows ability with those attacks (3 attacks at BAB +7/+7/+2).
The druid that multiclasses into monk (a lawful neutral druid) will also gain the AC bonus from wisdom of a monk when in wildshape form, though a DM may wish to house rule the monk AC bonus to work like the duelist AC bonus (see the DMG description of the duelist) to prevent too much of a gain from taking 1 level of monk.
That does not mean that the druid can not do a flurry of blows while in animal form. It can. It just doesn't use the attack values of the natural weapons. It instead uses the monk damage dice for natural attacks (modified for size). So, a medium monk of 10th level that normally deals d10 damage with an unarmed strike that is polymorphed into a large creature may make unarmed strikes for 2d8 damage (d10 increases to 2d8 with a size increase) and use the flurry of blows ability with those attacks (3 attacks at BAB +7/+7/+2).
The druid that multiclasses into monk (a lawful neutral druid) will also gain the AC bonus from wisdom of a monk when in wildshape form, though a DM may wish to house rule the monk AC bonus to work like the duelist AC bonus (see the DMG description of the duelist) to prevent too much of a gain from taking 1 level of monk.
shilsen
Adventurer
Trainz said:
As jgsugden pointed out, the character would also get the monk's Wis bonus to AC, which would be very useful in wildshape since most animal forms have very low AC, even with protective spells. Other abilities such as evasion, fast movement, etc. could be very useful too. Personally I think access to druid spells and the druid special abilities (not to mention advancing the animal companion's abilities, if the druid has one) is more important, but a monk/druid build can be an interesting and not underpowered one.
Korak
First Post
My understanding of the rules gives the following possible attack routines.
The Druid/Monk may attack in two ways.
She may flurry using her base attack bonus for iterative attacks and applying the appropriate flurry penalties. The damage will be from the monk damage tables based on monk level and size plus full strength bonus.
Or,
She many make unarmed attacks (no flurry possible because you want to also attack with non-monk weapons) with iterative attacks based on her base attack bonus, doing damage as above; and may attack with all of her natural weapons at a penalty of -5 from her highest base attack bonus (or -2 with multiattack, or -0 with improved multiattack) applying the natural attacks normal damage die plus one half strength bonus (as secondary attacks).
Example: Mnk2 Dr8
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Form: Brown Bear
May make a flurry at +13/+13/+8 [+7 for base attack +8 for strength -2 for flurry] for 1d8+8 per attack [large size level 2 monk]
Or may make iterative attacks at +15/+15 for 1d8+8 and 2 claws at +10 for 1d8+4, and a bite at +10 for 2d6+4
You can add 1 to all those attacks and damage figures for a greater magic fang cast on the druid to affect all his weapons at +1.
This is similar to a Troll with one fighter level (martial weapon proficiency)making iterative attacks with its base attack bonus using a long sword in one hand and making a claw attack as a secondary natural attack (at -5) with the other hand.
This combination can certainly lead to a large number of attacks, and a good AC. The weakness is the abysmally low base attack, and the lower druid level for wildshape purposes and caster level. The combo gets even weaker when more than 2 monk levels are added. If your campaigns include a large number of low ac foes, this combo is nasty. Otherwise, you're better off as a straight druid for the caster level and improved wildshape forms/times per day.
Compare to a Bbn10 with a 28 Str (buy 16, +2 for levels, +4str item, +4 rage, +2 enlarge) when raging and having enlarge person cast on him, using a weapon focus'd, +2 Greataxe for +21/+16 to hit and 3d6+15 damage... or power attacking down to the +15 hit mod on the low AC foes and hitting for 3d6+27. The average damage is higher for the barbarian in both single attacks and the full attack.
The Druid/Monk may attack in two ways.
She may flurry using her base attack bonus for iterative attacks and applying the appropriate flurry penalties. The damage will be from the monk damage tables based on monk level and size plus full strength bonus.
Or,
She many make unarmed attacks (no flurry possible because you want to also attack with non-monk weapons) with iterative attacks based on her base attack bonus, doing damage as above; and may attack with all of her natural weapons at a penalty of -5 from her highest base attack bonus (or -2 with multiattack, or -0 with improved multiattack) applying the natural attacks normal damage die plus one half strength bonus (as secondary attacks).
Example: Mnk2 Dr8
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Form: Brown Bear
May make a flurry at +13/+13/+8 [+7 for base attack +8 for strength -2 for flurry] for 1d8+8 per attack [large size level 2 monk]
Or may make iterative attacks at +15/+15 for 1d8+8 and 2 claws at +10 for 1d8+4, and a bite at +10 for 2d6+4
You can add 1 to all those attacks and damage figures for a greater magic fang cast on the druid to affect all his weapons at +1.
This is similar to a Troll with one fighter level (martial weapon proficiency)making iterative attacks with its base attack bonus using a long sword in one hand and making a claw attack as a secondary natural attack (at -5) with the other hand.
This combination can certainly lead to a large number of attacks, and a good AC. The weakness is the abysmally low base attack, and the lower druid level for wildshape purposes and caster level. The combo gets even weaker when more than 2 monk levels are added. If your campaigns include a large number of low ac foes, this combo is nasty. Otherwise, you're better off as a straight druid for the caster level and improved wildshape forms/times per day.
Compare to a Bbn10 with a 28 Str (buy 16, +2 for levels, +4str item, +4 rage, +2 enlarge) when raging and having enlarge person cast on him, using a weapon focus'd, +2 Greataxe for +21/+16 to hit and 3d6+15 damage... or power attacking down to the +15 hit mod on the low AC foes and hitting for 3d6+27. The average damage is higher for the barbarian in both single attacks and the full attack.
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