Druid Archetype

[Darklone]

The Restrictions of the class, with the exception of alignment - can be worked around.
Druids make for great "5th characters" in a party - as do bards.

Where druids have a tendency to get their butts in hot water is any kind of "urban" campaign.

I am confused. I had always several druids in my games and they never had problems. Granted, scarcely anyone of them played the typical melee smack build... but to call them good 5th chars "like bards" sounds like an understatement to me, bards are usually considered to be "only good" as a 5th char, druids can rock the game alone.

Let's look at the typical 4 guy party: Fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard. Let's see how a druid can substitute them:
- Fighter: Easy. Before he has wildshape, a fighter has +1 BAB, a few hitpoints more (or not, many druids have Con maxxed and don't suffer from the gnome size disadvantages as soon as wildshape is available) and more weapon/armor proficiencies... IMX druids aren't that much weaker in combat at low levels and they have their animal companion. As soon as he hits level 5 with wildshape, any druid with his companion wipes the floor with the fighter. Add perhaps a level monk and things get ugly. Bears with stunning fist and extra fire damage due to Produce Flame with ridiculous good ACs? No problem.
- cleric: Well, the cleric can heal better. But does he need it? No. I had several campaigns without clerics, the druids always provided enough healing for all.
- rogue: Trapspringing with summoned creatures? No problem. Spot, Listen check: Noone is better than a wis maxxed druid. Sneaking? Wildshape into a good sneaker/flier. Same for city settings, a nice cat often has an easy time to get into a hostile manor.
- wizard: Ok, the wizard is slightly better at blasting but not a lot. Given all their ground control spells, at level 7+ the druids in my group often caused more carnage than the wizards.

I had druid archers in my group as well as venerable druids or druid bards. None of them was anything but close to being the strongest group member. Druids simply can do anything. Urban campaigns? The last druid I had there didn't need one Gather information check, he used ravens, cats, dogs and rats as spies. I gave him a hard time to understand what they meant... still he found out anything without problems.

And he was a halfelf with medium charisma... so his skills weren't that bad if he would have wanted to use them!

 

[Brother MacLaren]

- cleric: Well, the cleric can heal better. But does he need it? No. I had several campaigns without clerics, the druids always provided enough healing for all.

It's more about the status-removal spells than the healing.

 

[moritheil]

2. Ye Shapechanging (now based on Alternate Form - not polymorph)

Shapechange, the spell, is still related to polymorph. Wild shape, the class feature, is what is based on alternate form now.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Once my druid reached 9th level, the ability to do SNA and then animal growth them meant that I was the mass damage producer in the party. Animal Growth to produce three huge dire wolves (Bite +16 melee (2d6+19) plus trip at +16) or 1d3 gargantuan crocodiles (Bite +17 melee (3d8+21) or tail slap +17 melee (3d6+21), improved grab and grapple at +29).

Druids have a wide range of damaging spells where one casting gives them multiple rounds of effect (produce flame, call lightning, call lightning storm).

For the price of one relatively cheap incense of meditation (4900gp), they can become a holy terror - all damage spells maximised for free(!) They get a whole lot more damage spells than clerics get.

 

[Imre]

I feel like druids have so much versatility as to be self-defeating. Once you've taken all those standard actions to Wildshape, summon, cast buff spells on yourself and your companion, Call Lightening, etc, you're dead.

They have all these options, but unless your DM is a putz, you will rarely have the time to bring them all to bare.

I also think that the Summon spells are incredibly underpowered unless you're focusing on that as your character build. The ability to summon something with a CR of about half your level just isn't that good.

I can say with a good bit of certainty that the Druid is dead last in the core classes my friends would use, and tied for last place with Dragon Shaman in WoTC classes. In terms of overall play, we all basically agree that Cleric is the most powerful. At high levels (we're playing an epic campaign), wizards close the gap considerably.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I also think that the Summon spells are incredibly underpowered unless you're focusing on that as your character build. The ability to summon something with a CR of about half your level just isn't that good.

I've found that summon spells are outstanding, IF you can get the spells cast without interruption. They're good for battlefield control (obstructing enemies' charges), flanking, grappling, threatening areas, and so on. They reduce a caster's main weakness, which is number of actions per round. And with buffs that affect multiple targets (Animal Growth, Inspire Courage, Haste) they become fantastic damage-dealers.

A simple CR comparison isn't always useful. Sending the right summons after an opponents' weak point is the way to go. Look at SNA IV. The CR 4 giant crocodile's improved grab will crush most Medium-sized NPCs of levels 7-10. It even does well on strength-vs-strength, such as facing CR 7 giants (the hill giant or the ogre barbarian). Arrowhawks can wear down high-SR foes, and Perfect manueverability reduces retaliation. Unicorns' Magic Circle Against Evil is great when facing other summoners or mind-control users, and they can also heal you. The tiger can inflict up to 65 points of damage on a pounce without ANY boosts, and is great against high-hp low-AC foes. The dire boar's single powerful attack will break through a Stoneskin effect or other DR (and at SNA V the rhino is great for this).

The elementals' DR and mobility (speed, earth glide, swimming, or feats) make them very useful even at high levels. A 17th-level caster can summon an elder earth elemental with a +37 grapple check. Despite being only a CR 11 monster, it beats ANY of the CR 17 MM creatures, as well as the CR 20 balor and pit fiend.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I feel like druids have so much versatility as to be self-defeating. Once you've taken all those standard actions to Wildshape, summon, cast buff spells on yourself and your companion, Call Lightening, etc, you're dead.

Well, the consensus of this thread, based on actual play experience, is that you and your friends are mistaken.

Are you going to go back to them now and tell them they're wrong?

 

[Darklone]

Clerics are usually dead before their buffing is finished... IMX druids cast one spell and then they fought.

 

[moritheil]

Clerics are usually dead before their buffing is finished... IMX druids cast one spell and then they fought.

IME most clerics are DMM: Persistent or DSP/novabuild, so they never have to buff in actual combat.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

Shapechange, the spell, is still related to polymorph. Wild shape, the class feature, is what is based on alternate form now.

Right, I was referring to the ability to wild shape there - not the spell shapechange. Sorry if the diction caused any confusion.