Druid/shape shifting question

[BryonD]

D&D is a game of rules. Rules are the laws of the game. Lawyers spend countless hours screwing around with laws. To keep lawyers from going too wild with their interpretations, some common sense rules have come into existence to help us determine how written rules should be interpreted. One of these rules is that you should look at the plain interpretation of the written rules for their meaning before looking elsewhere. Only if that clear meaning is absent should you begin to look for clarity through outside sources (such as supposition as to why a rule was put into place.) If the rule makers don't like how it is interpreted based upon a plain language interpretation, those rule makers can change the written rule.

Alter self makes a statement regarding hit points. It is clear and concise. Polymorph includes alter self by reference unless polymorph overrides a portion of alter self. Supposition about why the rule might have been written aside, unless there is something in polymorph that overrides that statement regarding hit points in alter self, it stands by reference in polymorph. Wildshape references polymorph in the same way. So, unless wildshape makes a special rule about hit points, the same rule applies.

Is D&D the proper setting for legal interpretation of laws? Yes and no. No, it isn't a place for rules lawyers to get uptight and argue minutia and destroy the enjoyable atmosphere of a game session. Yes, it is a proper place to use sound reasoning to figure out how you should play the game if questions arise. The problem is that those two things are very similar. The trick is knowing when to walk the slope and when to go with the flow.

By the logic you are promting, the only rational interpretation is that Hit Points DO in fact change.

Rule 1: When CON changes, hit points change.

Rule 2: Alter self does not change abilities or hit points

Rule 3: Polymorph is like alter self except where different as specified in the spell

Rule 4: Polymorph specifies that CON changes.

So you are left with two options:
A) Rule 1 above is ignored even though nothing in EITHER Alter Self or Polymorph states that hit points do not change WHEN CON changes;

OR

B) You interpret the statement in Alter Self regarding Hit Points to be a simple clarification reinforcing the lack of change in CON.

When forced to make a "plain language interpretation" I fail to see how quibbling over a single item out of a list of related examples in a single spell description would be more plain than follow the rules of the game overall.

Further, in the majority of form changing mechanics within D&D, physical abilities DO change and the basic rules of the game are follow in normal fashion. So when the typical scenario arises (polymorph) there is no reason to waste space with every redundant implication (They don't need to point out that your Fort save improves either. It does, they just don't waste space saying so). Because Alter Self is the non-typical scenario, you can become an ogre without gaining its CON, a little further discussion of what exactly does and does not happen is reasonable.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The trick is knowing when to walk the slope and when to go with the flow.

Go with the flow?

That way lies madness!

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

(They don't need to point out that your Fort save improves either. It does, they just don't waste space saying so).

They state that your base saves are unchanged. Thus a change in Con score affects your Fort save, since that is independent of what explicitly does not change - the base save.

They state that your hit points are unchanged. Thus a change in Con score cannot affect your hit points, since what the Con score affects (hit points) is not independent of what explicitly does not change - hit points.

If "base hit points" was a defined term, and if Alter Self did not affect "base hit points", then a change in Con could affect your total hit points while leaving "base hit points" constant. But that is not how the spells are worded.

-Hyp.

 

[BryonD]

They state that your base saves are unchanged. Thus a change in Con score affects your Fort save, since that is independent of what explicitly does not change - the base save.

They state that your hit points are unchanged. Thus a change in Con score cannot affect your hit points, since what the Con score affects (hit points) is not independent of what explicitly does not change - hit points.

If "base hit points" was a defined term, and if Alter Self did not affect "base hit points", then a change in Con could affect your total hit points while leaving "base hit points" constant. But that is not how the spells are worded.

-Hyp.

I think you are stretching with the mix and match.

Sorry for stating such an obvious fact, but you have forced it. Base saves are a function of Hit Dice, not CON.

Actually, looking at it again, I think you have strenghtened my case. The point they are making appears to be that none of the items that are normally a function of HD change, regardless of what HD the form you select has. This includes hit points. So they are not even talking about a relationship between hit points and CON, they are talking about a relationship between hit points and hit dice.

Nothing in Alter Self states that a change in CON would not carry with it the normal changes in HP or Fort saves. Why should they? Alter self does not change your CON, so there is no reason to discuss the impact of changing CON any more than there is reason to discuss the impact of chaging effective caster level.

There is not a single word or phrase in the description of Alter Self that contradicts a change in CON changing hit points.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The point they are making appears to be that none of the items that are normally a function of HD change, regardless of what HD the form you select has.

No, the point they're making is that your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same.

The inference you're drawing from that is that it's HD-related numbers that don't change... but that's not what is stated. What is stated is that your hit points remain the same. Not that the hit points you receive as a result of your hit dice, exclusive of ability modifiers, remain the same.

There is not a single word or phrase in the description of Alter Self that contradicts a change in CON changing hit points.

Apart from "Your hit points remain the same"?

-Hyp.

 

[BryonD]

Your quote appears to be missing the vital comment regarding changes to CON.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Your quote appears to be missing the vital comment regarding changes to CON.

Hmm? It's irrelevant.

Polymorph uses the rules for Alter Self, except where stated otherwise.

Alter Self cannot change your Con. Therefore Polymorph cannot change your Con... except that there is a stated difference between Alter Self and Polymorph, and thus Polymorph can change your Con.

Alter Self cannot change your hit points. Therefore Polymorph cannot change your hit points, and there is no stated difference. Polymorph can change your Con, which affects your Fort saves, Con-based skill checks, etc... but because of the uncontradicted prohibition in Alter Self, your hit points do not change as a result of Polymorph.

-Hyp.

 

[BryonD]

Why does it save "base save bonuses" and not just "saves"?

Answer, because they are talking about Hit Dice.

First sentence: "You retain your ability scores." That leaves no wiggle room. There is no reason to further discuss anything to do with ability scores. If the abilities do not chnage, nothing that is a function of them will change. Why even mention hit points or saves again?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why even mention hit points or saves again?

Because Alter Self is referred back to by all the other spells up the chain...

-Hyp.

 

[BryonD]

Thats just nuts.

You are inventing a statement that does not exist in the spell description.

PH page 9: "If a character's Constitution changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character's hit points also increase or decrease accordingly."

Alter self does NOT state that a change in CON no longer changes hit points.

It states that the spell it self does not change hit points. There are two means by which it could do so: It changes your CON or it changes you hit dice. The prior sentence ruled out CON, so it can only be refering to HD.

As you said, Polymorph uses the rules of Alter Self except where stated otherwise. Polymorph states otherwise that CON changes. Follow the rules for changing your CON as normal.

Further note that 3E Polymorh Other specifcially states that a lack of change in Hit points persisted despite the change in CON. That language is blantantly absent from both Alter Self (where it would be pointless) and Polymorph (where if intended it would clearly be needed).