Druid/shape shifting question

[BryonD]

Because Alter Self is referred back to by all the other spells up the chain...

-Hyp.

Completely dodging the question....

 

[Hypersmurf]

It states that the spell it self does not change hit points. There are two means by which it could do so: It changes your CON or it changes you hit dice. The prior sentence ruled out CON, so it can only be refering to HD.

Why? Just because Alter Self can't change your Con, doesn't mean that the mechanics of Alter Self are not used by other spells that can change your Con.

As you point out, there are two ways that Alter Self could change your hit points. By changing Con, or by changing your Hit Dice. It doesn't do either, but even if it did, your hit points remain the same. It says so. "Your hit points remain the same."

Likewise, there are two ways that Polymorph can change your hit points; by changing your Con, or by changing your hit dice. But even though it does change your Con, it comes up against the same wall - "Your hit points remain the same."

"Your hit points due to hit dice remain the same" is a phrase you're adding to Alter Self all by yourself.

-Hyp.

 

[deimos]

have to agree with BryonD

So then tell me how you would handle bear's endurance on top of polymorph.

Why? Just because Alter Self can't change your Con, doesn't mean that the mechanics of Alter Self are not used by other spells that can change your Con.

As you point out, there are two ways that Alter Self could change your hit points. By changing Con, or by changing your Hit Dice. It doesn't do either, but even if it did, your hit points remain the same. It says so. "Your hit points remain the same."

Likewise, there are two ways that Polymorph can change your hit points; by changing your Con, or by changing your hit dice. But even though it does change your Con, it comes up against the same wall - "Your hit points remain the same."

"Your hit points due to hit dice remain the same" is a phrase you're adding to Alter Self all by yourself.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So then tell me how you would handle bear's endurance on top of polymorph.

Add 2 hit points per hit die for the duration of the spell. Your Con is going up by 4 points as the result of a spell that can change your hit points.

-Hyp.

 

[paranoid]

The Spell specifically states that you can shapechange into a flea, right? Only guessing here, but what might the CON score of a flea be? 2? 4? What kind of wizard would survive this CON drop if his hit points would actually be adjusted?

- p.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What kind of wizard would survive this CON drop if his hit points would actually be adjusted?

Well, any wizard, really. Your max hit points never drop below 1 point per hit die, regardless of your Con modifier.

-Hyp.

 

[paranoid]

Your max hit points never drop below 1 point per hit die, regardless of your Con modifier.

ok, lesson learned

-p.

 

[paranoid]

When I think about it, alter self can be misused as a kind of immortality-spell. I think it was you, hyp, who pointed out elsewhere that ray of enfeeblement also has a protective element ("The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1"). The statement in alter self "your hit points remain the same" can be read in a similar way, can't it?

If the spell would state "your maximum hit points are not altered by this spell, because your CON score is not changed" would clear many things up.

ah well.

-p.

 

[Li Shenron]

Well, any wizard, really. Your max hit points never drop below 1 point per hit die, regardless of your Con modifier.

-Hyp.

What if he was wounded already? Does SC heal some HP?

 

[BryonD]

Why? Just because Alter Self can't change your Con, doesn't mean that the mechanics of Alter Self are not used by other spells that can change your Con.

Right. And nothing in Alter Self states that that change in CON would not change your hit points. There are no mechanics for how to handle ability score changes resulting from Alter Self.

As you point out, there are two ways that Alter Self could change your hit points. By changing Con, or by changing your Hit Dice. It doesn't do either, but even if it did, your hit points remain the same. It says so. "Your hit points remain the same."

Likewise, there are two ways that Polymorph can change your hit points; by changing your Con, or by changing your hit dice. But even though it does change your Con, it comes up against the same wall - "Your hit points remain the same."

"Your hit points due to hit dice remain the same" is a phrase you're adding to Alter Self all by yourself.

-Hyp.

Wrong.

You keep taking the statement out of context. I asked you why the terms "base" save and "base" attack are used. You ignored this question because the only reasonable answer make the correct interpretation obvious.

The complete sentence is "Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and bonus saves all remain the same." Everything after "class and level" descends from "class and level". Like you pointed out, there is no term "base hit points". Yet you are basing your argument on them not using a term that does not exist. Again, why do they specify "base"? The answer is because your bab and base saves are functions of the topic of the sentence: class and level.

The old 3E version of Polymorph (Other) specifically stated that your hit points did not change "despite" the change in your CON. This phrase was blatantly removed.

There is a rule that states a change in CON changes your hit points. There is no statement in Alter Self or Polymorph that contradicts this.

If a Sorc4/Paladin1 uses Alter Self to take the form of a 2HD "always evil" creature, they would still be a Sorc4/Paladin1 with the same hit points (4d10+1d4+5*Con bonus+other, NOT 2dX+...), alignment, bab and base saves." That is all the key sentence is saying.