Druid/shape shifting question

[jgsugden]

And nothing in Alter Self states that that change in CON would not change your hit points. There are no mechanics for how to handle ability score changes resulting from Alter Self.

The alter self description says that your hit points do not change. Period. No conditions. No exceptions. Your hit points remain the same. This statement overwrites the normal rules for calculating hit points. A change in con therefor has no effect on your hit points because NOTHING about the alter self spell will change your hit points. Polymorph incorporates this clause by reference.

The complete sentence is "Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and bonus saves all remain the same." Everything after "class and level" descends from "class and level". Like you pointed out, there is no term "base hit points". Yet you are basing your argument on them not using a term that does not exist. Again, why do they specify "base"? The answer is because your bab and base saves are functions of the topic of the sentence: class and level.

You are presuming that everything 'descends' from class and level. First, there is no basis for this argument beyond pure supposition. You're reading an intent into the words that is not present on the face of the text. Secondly, the things following 'class and level' do not all derive from class and level: How is alignment a function of class and level?

You're reading things into the spell that do not exist. Class and level are a part of the list, not a subject heading for the list. The inclusion of alignment in the list precludes that possibility. This list is a list of things that do not change. Hit points are included in that list. Therefor, hit points do not change. They are locked in so that the spell does not change them, regardless of any other rules.

The old 3E version of Polymorph (Other) specifically stated that your hit points did not change "despite" the change in your CON. This phrase was blatantly removed.

One of their goals in rewriting the PHB was to get more material into the book. To this end, they streamlined many sections of the text. This removed some redundant clarifying language. This seems to be one instance where that occurred. The language in alter self says that hit points do not change. Polymorph incorporates that language. Specifying that a change in con doesn't change HPs might be a nice clarifying statement, but it is not necessary as there is already a statement that hit points *do not change*.

There is a rule that states a change in CON changes your hit points. There is no statement in Alter Self or Polymorph that contradicts this.

Once again: Alter self says that hit points do not change because of the spell. Polymorph incorporates this clause. Therefor, hit points remain the same.

If a Sorc4/Paladin1 uses Alter Self to take the form of a 2HD "always evil" creature, they would still be a Sorc4/Paladin1 with the same hit points (4d10+1d4+5*Con bonus+other, NOT 2dX+...), alignment, bab and base saves." That is all the key sentence is saying.

That sentence says that the sorcerer/paladin would retain his class, his level, his hit points, his alignment, his base attack bonus and his base save bonuses.

It is important for balance reasons that hit points do not change. The spell becomes far too powerful if it can give a wizard 150 bonus hit points via a nameless con bonus. They made an effort to reign in the power of polymorph in 3.5. Why would they open the door for an incredible abuse?

Think of it this way:

There is a general rule that characters (without a natural fly speed) can not fly. This is the normal state of affairs. The fly spell gives characters the ability to fly. The fly changes the normal way that things operate in the game.

There is a general rule that characters gain hit points when their constitution score rises enough to increase their constitution bonus. The alter self spell states that hit points do not change when the spell is used (no exceptions to this rule are given in the alter self spell). The alter self spell, by specifying that hit points do not change (with no exceptions given), changes the normal way that things operate in the game.

You're free to run the game as you see fit. The rules, however, say that hit points do not change.

 

[BryonD]

The rules say that if your CON changes, your hit points change.

Not a single word in Alter Self contradicts this.

Period.

Whether you consider it balanced or not is completely irrelevant.

3E had specific language that denied the change in hit points that language is GONE. Irrational attempts to cling to the old version without that language is pointless.

Alter Self says your abilities do not change. Polymorph trumps that and brings all implications with it. Very simple logic.

The sage's assessment is dead on.

 

[DarkCrisis]

So....

He loses the eyes (till he can get them fixed... regen?) but his HP changes though his wound total stays the same?

 

[jgsugden]

The rules say that if your CON changes, your hit points change.
Not a single word in Alter Self contradicts this.
Period.
Whether you consider it balanced or not is completely irrelevant.
3E had specific language that denied the change in hit points that language is GONE. Irrational attempts to cling to the old version without that language is pointless.
Alter Self says your abilities do not change. Polymorph trumps that and brings all implications with it. Very simple logic.
The sage's assessment is dead on.

The statement in polymorph (about changing constitution) is too far removed from the statement on your hit point total not changing for it to override it. Hit points and constitution are different subjects that are only secondarily related. In order for your hit points to change, there needs to be a specific rule in polymorph that directly overrides the hit point language in alter self. No such language exists.

In other words, there is a specific and direct statement in alter self that hit points do not change. There would need to be a specific and direct statement in polymorph to overrule this language. No such statement exists. Thus, the language stands: Hit points do not change. This is a fairly basic rule in interpreting rules/laws: Specific language trumps over indirect results of language on a different topic.

Your arugument is akin to the following: The posted speed limit is 25 MPH. There is a law in the books that says you may not drive faster than any ambulance in sight. You see an ambulance flying down the road at 90 MPH. You speed up to 89 MPH and follow it. When the cop pulls you over, you say, "The law says that I must drive slower than any ambulance in sight, so I didn't break the law."

A specific clause needs to be specifically countered. There is nothing in the language of polymorph or wildshape that specifically counters the specific language of alter self that specifically specifies the specification that hit points do not change.

Period.

You seem very stuck in your position. I don't think that anybody is going to change their opinion today. You would be well served to take a step back from the issue and revisit it in a few days with all the arguments that have been presented to you in mind. Perhaps you'll see it from a different light. Either way, I don't think it will be worth my time to try and convince you.

 

[Nail]

The rules seem clear, working back along the "chain". The druid's hp do not change.

Think about this awhile. It prevents some serious cheese. Cheese that I have, incidentally, used in the past. Shucks.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Add 2 hit points per hit die for the duration of the spell. Your Con is going up by 4 points as the result of a spell that can change your hit points.

Whatever else you do, this is completely wrong.

Constitution does not exist as a series of discreet units. Adding 4 to your constitution does not give you two hit points per die. It gives you a new modifier as specified on page 8 of the 3.5 PHB. This new modifier is then added to all of your hit dice.

So if, for some strange reason you didn't modify hit points from a new Con score when you wildshaped into a creature with a 19 Con - when you Bear Enduranced you would then apply a +6 total modifier.

Otherwise, care to explain what happens to a Constitution 14 Druid who Wildshapes into a Con 19 creature and then loses 1 Constitution point to blood drain?


Regardless, the rules are pretty clear on this: changes to Con affect your hit points just as vigorously as axe blows to the head do - and Wildshaping protects you from neither.

The "official" sources are in agreement as well: Skip Williams, Customer Service, and even Andy Collins all agree that the 3.5 Polymorph (and by extension Wildshape) change hit points when and if they change Con.

You can whine about it all you want - but that is the rules. This is a rules forum, we are expected to give correct answers and first and wish-lists afterwards. The correct answer is that hit points change when your Con does.

-Frank

 

[Hypersmurf]

So if, for some strange reason you didn't modify hit points from a new Con score when you wildshaped into a creature with a 19 Con - when you Bear Enduranced you would then apply a +6 total modifier.

In 3E, hit points explicitly did not change to reflect a change in Con modifier as a result of Polymorph. In 3.5, it's not explicitly stated, though it's implicit from the "As Alter Self except" line.

However Endurance or Con drain affected a Polymorphed creature in 3E is still applicable.

-Hyp.

 

[FrankTrollman]

However Endurance or Con drain affected a Polymorphed creature in 3E is still applicable.

You recalculated your hit points based on your new current constitution - it meant that Constitution damage could actually give you more hit points. If you had a Con of 10 (no bonus), and Polymorphed into a creature with a Constitution of 23, you gained no hit points - but if you took 4 points of Con damage you recalculated your hit points based on your modifier of +4 - for a total gain of 4 hit points per level.

That's why they changed it in 3.5. Now getting more Constitution is always good and losing Constitution is always bad - stop trying to undo the good parts of 3.5 - they are few and ffar between enough as it is.

-Frank

 

[Nail]

Otherwise, care to explain what happens to a Constitution 14 Druid who Wildshapes into a Con 19 creature and then loses 1 Constitution point to blood drain?

Easy: You lose 1 hp per level or HD.

What's so hard about that?

 

[FrankTrollman]

Easy: You lose 1 hp per level or HD.

What's so hard about that?

Because your constitution modifier hasn't changed - which means that you don't recalculate hit points. That's what is so hard.

Remember:

If a character's Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character's hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

Polymorphing does not create a secondary phantom Constitution score - it creates a real one.

-Frank