Druids conquer the world

[RangerWickett]

Last week, a poster in a thread I started pointed out that druids are effectively eternal. Get two druids to agree to reincarnate each other if they die, and as long as they're able to gain a level or two each lifetime to offset the reincarnation level-loss, they'd always have new bodies, so they'd never die of old age.

Then this came today from a player in my game:

I just found the coolest little loophole:

At ninth level, a druid can cast Awaken, giving a plant or animal 3d6 int, +1d3 cha, and +2 HD. The duration of the spell is instantaneous, and the effects are permanent.

At ninth level a druid can wild shape, and any good player would have taken the Natural Spell feat. Wild shape says you change as if you'd used polymorph. Polymorph says that when you change "your type and subtype (if any) changes to match" whatever you turn into, like say an animal. See where I'm going with this?

Now get a rod of maximize spell, wild shape into a squirrel or something, cast awaken on yourself, and you can set your intelligence to 18, plus every time you cast the spell you'll gain +3 charisma, and 2 more hit dice. I'd say that's well worth the 250XP cost...

 

[Deset Gled]

From a flavor standpoint, you could probably come up with reasons why Druids would never do this. It would upset the balance of nature, etc, etc, etc.

From a mechanical standpoint, you're correct.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Last week, a poster in a thread I started pointed out that druids are effectively eternal. Get two druids to agree to reincarnate each other if they die, and as long as they're able to gain a level or two each lifetime to offset the reincarnation level-loss, they'd always have new bodies, so they'd never die of old age.

Remember that the age of the body has very little to do with dying of old age in D&D.

There are plenty of effects that stop people's bodies aging, and they don't stop you dying of old age at your appointed time, even though your body is still young and vigorous.

If someone was slated to die at 95 of old age, and at 90, got reincarnated into a new young adult body, I'd still have them die of old age five years later.

As for the Awaken trick, that was pretty much the very first thing people noticed when 3.5 allowed type to change - it's one of the oldest 3.5-specific rules exploits.

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

There's a question as to whether or not maximize would apply to Awaken.

For instance, it can be argued that the actual effect of awaken is that it "awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience."

The dice rolling described is just an abbreviated version of the character creation section of the rules, and is a side effect of gaining "humanlike sentience."

Thus, there's no variable, numeric effects to be maximized, in the same way that a Maximized Summon Monster 2 spell doesn't affect the summons' hit points, saving throws, or attack rolls.

 

[Patlin]

My ruling would be that awaken creates an entirely new and inexperienced personality, destroying the existing personality. Nice trick: your character is essentially dead, and there's a 1st level npc where he used to be.

I'd explain this first, of course, and let the player change their mind and not go through with the spell. Ought to discourage that particular exploit...

 

[Nac_Mac_Feegle]

You cant awaken the squirrel.

Although as per polymorph, you gain sub type etc, you retain your own intelligence, therefore, you are not a squirrel, you are yourself in a squirrel body, your already awakened. If you werent, then once you wild shaped into a creature, you would forget who you are, and never change back.

Isnt that obvious?

Feegle Out

 

[Li Shenron]

Isnt that obvious?

Not in this forum

 

[RangerWickett]

Thank you, Li, for understanding the point of my post. *smile*

 

[Plane Sailing]

For instance, it can be argued that the actual effect of awaken is that it "awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience."

The dice rolling described is just an abbreviated version of the character creation section of the rules, and is a side effect of gaining "humanlike sentience."

Thus, there's no variable, numeric effects to be maximized, in the same way that a Maximized Summon Monster 2 spell doesn't affect the summons' hit points, saving throws, or attack rolls.

I certainly consider that to be the case, I'd not allow maximise (or empower!) to modify the attribute rolls.

Cheers

 

[Hypersmurf]

There's a question as to whether or not maximize would apply to Awaken.

This is really the Flaming Sphere question in another guise, isn't it?

To recap my position on that one - a Maximized Summon Monster I (Celestial Dog) summons a dog who does not deal maximized damage with his bite attack, since the damage of the bite attack is not part of the spell text.

A Maximized Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound creates a dog who does deal maximized damage with his bite attack, since the damage of the bite attack is defined in the spell text.

-Hyp.