Level Up (A5E) What Druid wild shape forms would you allow to throw Seed Bombs? Or use an object?

[Tessarael]

The A5E Druid can cast spells in wild shape form, if the spell is range self or touch. The Seed Bomb spell has range touch, so can be cast in wild shape form. Having cast it, you have 4 seeds that can be thrown 60' one-at-a-time as an action. So which Druid wild shape forms can actually throw something?

Apes can obviously throw something, as they have this as a ranged weapon attack. Other monkeys can too. Presumably so too can Fungal Zombie, Myconid Spore Servant, Octopus, and Rocktopus. Squirrels can throw items too, so perhaps they too could throw a seed enchanted by Seed Bomb.

Can a Raptor or Giant Spider do so, if agility and the ability to hold something is sufficient, rather than having a full throwing action? What about something like an Eagle or a Tiger?

What is permissible is open to DM interpretation. I don't think it is broken mechanically to allow a wild shape form that is capable of holding something to throw it. Thoughts? Would you be strict about this as a DM, or allow it for a wide variety of shapes?

A similar question is what wild shape forms have sufficient manual dexterity for a Druid to manipulate tools, open a door, pull a lever, use an object, etc.? Given that A5E Druids can speak, they can presumably also fire say a wand if they can hold it. Quaffing a potion or using a scroll is also open to interpretation. I look forward to the Druid squirrel seriously intoning a spell from a scroll ...

Thoughts?

 

[W'rkncacnter]

something to note: one of humanity's specialties is throwing things. other primates can kind of throw like humans do, and there are animals that have their own ways of "throwing", but humans throw the fastest and most accurately by far. from what i can find this is mainly due to how our thumbs work, how our shoulders are spaced, and how our waists move.

put another way, if the form is humanoid or primate in shape, it's probably fine to let it throw stuff. anything else? probably not, at least not 60 feet without an attack roll.

using an object is kind of similar but also less strict, because ANOTHER one of humanity's specialties is precise dexterity (e.g. for using tools), but a lot of object interactions don't really need super precise dexterity, so you can get away with a lot more.

of course, that's all if you're asking from a watsonian perspective. from a doylist perspective, if it's balanced to allow one type of wildshape form to throw things or use objects, it's probably fine for any other.

 

[Tessarael]

Part of my question alludes to the Seed Bomb enchantment being responsible for how the seeds can be thrown 60'. GPT4 reckons that a human could indeed throw a pine cone 60', but only 30' for a sunflower seed, and 15' for a tumbleweed seed. Those numbers seem reasonable as a rough guess of what is typically possible. Hence, even a human cannot throw two of the three Seed Bomb varieties that distance without magical assistance from the spell.

As a DM, I would try to classify wild shape form manual agility based on real world examples. Monkeys, apes, koalas, lemurs, lorises, opossums, and raccoons have prehensile hands or paws. In most of these cases, the prehensile hands are for climbing, buts apes (including great apes and humans) have precision grips to manipulate small items for tool use. In contrast, while bears and squirrels are good at grasping items, their paws are not prehensile.

I'd allow apes to use appropriately sized equipment for humanoids, with disadvantage for some particularly complex tools - e.g., Thieve's Tools. I'd allow other animals with grasping hands/paws to use simple tools too. For example, when I was a kid, one of our dogs knew how to open the gate latch to get out of the backyard, but a door knob would be too difficult for a dog to turn, due to the difficulty gripping it. Whereas, octopi are capable of turning knobs, unscrewing jar lids, and opening valves.

One issue here is that A5E/D&D statistics are not a guide for such capability. For example, a Giant Octopus has Dexterity 12, whereas Dire Wolf and Tiger both have Dexterity 14. Possibly a better guide to this is Intelligence, if we tie A5E/D&D Intelligence to tool use. For example, an Ape has Intelligence 6, Giant Octopus and Raptor have Intelligence 4, Tiger has Intelligence 3, and Giant Spider has Intelligence 2.

Back to the Seed Bomb spell, I'd argue that to throw a seed, the minimum capability is being able to grasp a seed. Prehensile animals can do so. Given that bears, great cats, etc., can swat and bat items, maybe it is okay to allow any wild shape forms with grasping capability to do the magically enhanced "throw" for a Seed Bomb enchanted seed too. Like W'rkncacnter commented above, it is reasonable from a Doylist perspective for a Druid in wild shape that can grasp objects to use them, at least if they are not complex tools.

 

[Tessarael]

One restriction that would be appropriate is that a scroll, or other magic item used in wild shape form by an A5E Druid would be restricted to range self or touch spell effects. That is in keeping with the standard restrictions for A5E Druid spell casting while in a wild shape form.

 

[Tessarael]

Produce Flame raises the same question as Seed Bomb, albeit the text specifies "fling" rather than "throw". For Seed Bomb, we discussed this in our last session, and the DM's response was that you'd need to be in a wildshape form like that was capable of throwing something.

Examples of Druid wildshape, at most CR 6, Beast and Plant options that are sufficiently humanoid or prehensile to throw something are: Ape (CR 1/2), Baboon (CR 0), Giant Octopus (CR 1), Giant Rocktopus (CR 1), Morphoi (CR 1/2), Treant Sapling (CR 2), and Weeping Treant (CR 6).

And Vegepygmies: Vegepygmy (CR 1/4), Vegepygmy Chief (CR 2), Vegepygmy Moldmaker (CR 3), Vegepygmy Scavenger (CR 1/4),

Assuming that Myconids are prehensile tool users, add these too: Deathcap Myconid (CR 4), Myconid Adult (CR 1/2), Myconid Sovereign (CR 2), Myconid Sprout (CR 0)

There are many spore servant humanoids and similar that could do so too: Drow Spore Servant (CR 1/8), Duergar Spore Servant (CR 1/2), Fungal Zombie (CR 1), Mindrot Thrall (CR 3), Myconid Spore Servant (CR 1), Podling (CR 1/2), Spore Servant Octopus (CR 1), Spore Thrall (CR 1/4), Tribal Warrior Spore Servant (CR 1/8).

The Astral Blight (CR 1) and Ravenala (CR 5) are depicted as humanoid, so perhaps they can throw items. Likewise, maybe a Mi-Go (CR 5) could also do so - at least they were tool using in a recent campaign that we had.

 

[aco175]

I would tend to vote that they all can or all cannot.

Have we ever seen a monkey throw a stick. I seem to think that they are not very accurate. But, then they have your intelligence so maybe they can figure out release and such if they have the arm structure. Then another question is if a possum can throw something 60ft, but my grandmother cannot either. Like everything else, just pick yes or no.

 

[Tessarael]

I agree on the throwing range. I mentioned that above for Seed Bomb, that it doesn't seem possible in real life for some seed variants to be thrown 60', without the magical enchantment from the spell. So it is the spell that permits it to be thrown that far, not the physical capability of the form chosen.

From a game balance perspective, the humanoid beast/plant forms for Druid seem a little weaker than some of the other options. For example, the best I have seen with CR of at most 1 are Ape (CR 1/2), Myconid Spore Servant (CR 1/2), and Vegepygmy (CR 1/4). These are on par with other Druid wild shape forms if they can use additional equipment like say a club for Shillelagh, shield, etc.

Permitting only such humanoid/prehensile forms to throw for Magic Stone, Produce Flame, and Seed Bomb is fine, but it also not unbalanced to allow this in other Druid wild shape forms too, IMHO. As a player, I don't mind that much either way. It is interesting to navigate the rules system and figure out what is workable, and what is not.

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As another example of a rules issue for A5E Druid with Skinchanger archetype, what should the AC be if the form uses armor/barding and/or shield and factoring in the Wisdom modifier from Skinchange archetype? By the rules as written, it is this:

• AC modifier if using shield + form’s AC + Wisdom modifier
• AC modifier if using shield + AC 12 + Druid level/4 (round down) + Wisdom modifier
• AC modifier if using shield + armor/barding AC + Dexterity modifier capped by armor max. Dexterity mod. + Wisdom mod.

The third option can be exploited to achieve excessively high AC, and at 10th level Skinchanger can stay in one form all day using Rediscovered Self. So I think instead, it should be the following:

• AC modifier if using shield + armor/barding AC + Dexterity or Wisdom modifier capped by armor max. Dexterity mod.

Note that these do require the Druid to be proficient in the corresponding non-metallic armor (light/medium armor equivalent for barding) and non-metallic shield.

We can imagine that a Druid might use say bone Breastplate +1 and medium wooden Shield +1, with Wisdom 20 achieving a total AC of 20 = 14 breastplate + 1 + 2 shield + 1 + 2, with the +5 from Wisdom modifier capped at +2 and no Dexterity modifier +2 from the shape as well - otherwise that would be AC 25, which is excessive. In comparison, using the Druid AC 12 + level/4 (round down) option + shield + 1, at Druid level 8 the AC would be 22 = 12 + 2 (Druid level 8/4) + 2 shield + 1 + 5 Wisdom modifier, which is still on the high side - the AC 19 without shield is fine.