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Druid's Venom Immunity

One is a poison.

The other is a curse, and therefore not a poison.
No, they are both liquids that cast a spell-like function on the drinker. A magical poison and a potion are essentially the same thing.

All means All.
I'm going to say this one last time for those of you who keep repeating this ad nauseum. If "all means all" then under the Paladin's Divine Health ability, there would be no need to add the line, "including supernatural and magical diseases."

Do you understand that? Even SoS acknowledged this.
 

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Hey guys, it's that aforementioned DM here.
I wasn't being an ass like it may sound. I'm running a grittier casmpaign so I was thinking about making a difference between natural poisons (Druids deal with the natural world mostly) and supernatural/magic poisons. There isn't any rules to back my idea, but hell, I'm a DM, we have creative liberty. Right now I'm probably going to leave it as is unless I introduce a special "effects all" poison or something like that.

Previous versions of D&D clearly limited Druids to non-magical poison immunity undoubtedly for the very reason you've observed "Druids deal with the natural world mostly)." So limiting Druids to "natural" poisons would still be thematically correct. But there are a couple of caveats as I see them:

1) As a DM and a player, one thing I've observed is that players are always trying to seize as much territory as they can. When I read these forums, the overwhelming majority of opinions are in favor of any interpretation that benefits players. When you suggest one that doesn't, you get statements like SoS's where he threatens to quite the game because of "heavy handed bs." Oh the drama.

2) What constitutes a "natural" poison in 3.5? There is no explicit category. A logical supposition is any animal or creature based poison, but what if a magical beast or Outsider has poison? None of those occur in nature. Or can you expend natural poison to mean poisons created from mundane materials?

3) Did 3.5 mean to boost Druid immunity or just simplify the game? There's no doubt 3.5 is meant to be less gritty and more streamlined than previous versions, but maybe this is some of both. Tough to say.

4) Whatever your decision, I would talk with the player and come to an agreement. Players always want things that benefit them and have a heard time understanding that the more they get, the harder it is to make the game enjoyable for them.

5) Most of this debate for me is academic. Simply an exercise exploring "semantics" as JackintheGreen calls it. What is WotC saying? What are they trying to say? How do we determine it? Obviously I don't care how anybody wants to treat "all poison." Though it would be nice to find a FAQ on spell poisons and what immunities cover them.
 

Here is Monte Cook's take on it from the Book of Eldritch Might page 29:

"Creatures immune to poison are immune to the
spell-like effects of magic poisons as well."


 

While I'm not going to take a side in this discussion overall, I would like to clarify one point:

I'm going to say this one last time for those of you who keep repeating this ad nauseum. If "all means all" then under the Paladin's Divine Health ability, there would be no need to add the line, "including supernatural and magical diseases."

Do you understand that? Even SoS acknowledged this.

As a matter of fact, it is important to include that line, because of the change in the way diseases worked from 2e to 3e. What are considered to be "magical diseases" in 3.0 were considered to be "curses" in 2e. The 2e paladin entry contains the following ability:
A paladin is immune to all forms of disease. (Note that certain magical afflictions -- lycanthropy and mummy rot -- are curses and not diseases.)

The 3e paladin entry for divine health, then, specifically mentions those magical diseases so that players and DMs realize that paladins are now immune to them when previously they were not:
Divine Health (Ex): At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy).

The important point there is not the including supernatural magical diseases part, which would be inserted if there were a doubt that "all means all," but rather the such as mummy rot and lycanthropy part, which is inserted for the benefit of players switching over to a new system from AD&D.
 

Your logic is flawed in that you refuse to acknowledge that the section is only covering creature immunity. Because it fails to mention any thing other than creatures with immunity, you cannot apply the logic to character granted immunity. Your rationale for analyzing this section is self-contradictory. I'm going to quote the section once again and you show me where character immunity is mentioned:
Creatures with natural poison attacks are immune to their own poison. Nonliving creatures (constructs and undead) and creatures without metabolisms (such as elementals) are always immune to poison. Oozes, plants, and certain kinds of outsiders are also immune to poison, although conceivably special poisons could be concocted specifically to harm them.​
The section starts out talking about CREATURES and continues to talk about them throughout. Trying to cherry pick the last sentence and say that, "Oh, since Druids aren't mentioned, it clearly doesn't apply to them" fails to grasp the fact that the entire section isn't a statement for or against Druid immunity. In fact, because WotC makes a distinction based on the nature of the immunity i.e. metabolism versus none, Druids clearly fall in the "I have a metabolism" category and are thus more likely to fall under the "special" poison exception. That would be a logical reading.
I know darn well those specific lines refer to creatures in general. I am simply saying that if WotC wanted a druid's venom immunity to specifically be against "natural" poisons, they would have said something about it much like they did in previous editions.

Hallelujah! That's right. The list of poisons is what they mean when they say "all" poisons. The list you said didn't exist, does in fact exist which and none of them are magical and none Of them are supernatural or spell-like. Which is why "all" would not refer to magical or supernatural poisons.
Okay then, let's go with the possibility that the list is a definitive end-all be-all source for poisons. It is missing several entries, since there are other natural poisons such as a monstrous scorpion's. Oddly enough the entry "large scorpion venom" does Str damage, while actual monstrous scorpion poison does Con damage. The list is clearly not a list encompassing "all" poisons, even natural ones. If that list is what's referred to when speaking of immunity to all poisons, even natural ones, there are serious problems going on.

Praise be to god. This is the logic I am employing when I offer the interpretation that a Druid is not immune to magical poisons (ignoring that previous versions of D&D explicitly excluded magical poisons). D&D doesn't recognize any magical poisons on its list of poisons. Why it fails to address spell based poisons directly, and then adds specific text to Cloudkill is confusing.
As mentioned, WotC isn't consistent. You've also stated right there that you're ignoring how previous versions explicitly excluded magical poisons, which is potentially a key point in this. WotC has shown that it can and will limit the ability to non-magical poisons. For 3.5 they have instead gone with a simple "immunity to all poisons," so it's reasonable to think they want to druid to be immune to all poisons, period.

Flawed reasoning, see above.

Once again, that doesn't follow. The section you keep referring to applies to creatures, not character immunity. It isn't trying to make a statement on character powers one way or the other. And any objective reader is going to reason that things with a "metabolism" are most likely susceptible to "special" poisons, which puts Druids clearly in that bucket.
Let's look at this objectively then. The line that modifies the immunity to oozes, plants, and certain outsiders does not refer to metabolism at all. Can it be argued that it means anything with a metabolism? Yes, as you've done so already. When viewing it objectively though, without bias in any form, what is the interpretation a strict reading will reveal?

As far as I can see, reading it strictly shows only that oozes, plants, and certain kinds of outsiders can have poisons made to specifically affect them. It doesn't allow or disallow the possibility of other creatures normally immune to poison being affected by certain poisons made for them. We must now ask whether these rules are inclusive (meaning it's an example of what could be done and can include other creatures) or exclusive (meaning the entry is specific and cannot apply to anything else.) Given WotC's track record on such rulings, it is exclusive. Specific trumps general, and the rules specifically mention only "oozes, plants, and certain kinds of outsiders." These rules cannot be applied to other creatures, of which a druid is likely.

This does bring up the case of an applicable outsider with 9 or more levels in druid. Would a poison specially crafted to work on this kind of outsider work on this one with druid levels too? We've already established a poison can be made to work on the outsider, but will such a poison work against a powerful druid? One argument is that the poison has to work against both sets of immunities. Another is it that it only has to get through one to work, for whatever reason. Both scenarios are equally plausible. I won't debate further on this topic though, since it looks like something for people to decide on their own when they cross that bridge.
 

If "all means all" then under the Paladin's Divine Health ability, there would be no need to add the line, "including supernatural and magical diseases."

That is correct. There was no need to add "including supernatural and magical diseases." They did it anyway. Why? You'll have to ask the authors, but probably to emphasize the difference between the paladin's ability and the monks which specifically does not include magical diseases.
 

I know it doesn't carry much weight at this point, but I'm going to add my 2 cents anyway:

"All poisons" seems to be about as clear as it can be. It means all poisons, period. Previous editions not withstanding, other entries on other immunities for other classes not withstanding, this one seems to be so plainly and clearly written that I really don't see any grounds for an argument.
 

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Objection!

Sir, I am offended by your offensive offense, and challenge you to a duel on the field of honor in order to rectify the situation. We shall settle this like men: with a children's card game. In America.
 
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Wow... that's a whole lotta hoopla...

I'm just glad at our table 'immunity to poisons' means just that. If it has 'poison' anywhere in it's descriptor, then the Druid is immune. I don't see what's so complicated about that.

Unless there is an poison that specifically targets a druid, much like BoED's ravages and afflictions target undead who are normally immune, but I have yet to see one.
 

Objection!

Sir, I am offended by your offensive offense, and challenge you to a duel on the field of honor in order to rectify the situation. We shall settle this like men: with a children's card game. In America.

Are we in court here? Why would you be calling 'objection' on me then? Oh, I see, the high density of rules lawyering around here has misled you to believe this was a formal hearing. Unfortunately, good sir, this happens to just be the internet, where bad things happen every day and no 'objection' is going to help that. I must admit to being intrigued by your offer, though. What card game would you be referring to?
 

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