Dual Caster Codex Project...anybody want in?

[Takhisis]

I have always had a love of dual caster classes like the Mystic Theurge, but I constantly found dual casting to be horridly under-supported and in many cases not even worth it. While some dual casters can be powerful and fun, I find as a whole that dual casting is an untapped aspect of D&D 3.5 and thus I came up with an idea. Like many others have done, I wish to, with a good team of people, release a completely free, completely public, not for profit pdf "book" that will contain a collection of dual caster PrCs, feats and other such things relating to dual casters that will aim to make playing a dual caster fun, flavorful and effective.

However, I can't do this alone, and in short, I need a team of dedicated, interested individuals to help me out. I am looking for the following people:

Tech Specialist/Techie- I need somebody who can handle the technical aspects of putting together the pdf. The file creation, piecing together, photoshop work ect... This is the person who is going to be making the file and making it look presentable, so they should have some significant computer knowledge(which I lack) or at the least knowledge of how to make pdfs/how pdfs work. This person also, if they feel they have talent in the homebrewing department is free to double as a homebrewer.

This is perhaps the most important job, and technically the only job that is absolutely necessary to the creation of the pdf.

Homebrewers- The most important job after the tech specialist. While I have plenty of ideas myself, I definitely want some skilled, experienced homebrewers to contribute their ideas and help prefect mine. I can really take any number of these and the more to help out the better. If you enjoy making PrCs and feats, then this is the job for you. I will cut the number of these off when I feel I have enough.

Artists- While not completely necessary, it would be nice to have an artist or two to make pictures to liven up the Pdf. While a bare bones/pure text pdf is fine by me, some art would really help to spice things up and make the pdf much more presentable and pleasing to the eye. I will except any style of art so long as it can clearly depict fantasy characters in a serious way.(So nothing abstract or extremely cartoonish.) That means basically realistic, comic book style, anime/manga(so long as it's not chibi) or anything similar is fine. Again, if you think you can homebrew, you can double as a homebrewer if you fill this job.

So, dose anybody want to be part of the project, and if so, what job(s) do you feel you can/want to fill?

 

[Celebrim]

I handle all caster multiclassing in the same fashion.

There are three general feats you can take that boost the caster level in all of your classes.

I don't have the exact text with me, but the first makes your caster level in all classes equal to your character level. So for example, if you were a 3/3 split progression, you'd cast all your spells at 6th level of ability.

The second feat in the chain boosts your spell progression in all classes by 2 levels to a maximum of character level. It's got certain minimum restrictions on it designed to make it more balanced, but basically if you were like a 6/3 split you'd have the spells of a 8/5 split and cast all spells at 9th level of a ability.

The third feat provides the same boost as the second, so I've you were like a 9/6 split, then you'd cast as a 13/10.

So at the cost of almost half your general feats and forfeiting some of your higher level class benefits, you can get alot of spells rather cheaply. I therefore don't feel the need for any PrCs or other more complex solutions. My book is exactly one page.

 

[Takhisis]

I never heard of those feats, so unless they are homebrew they must be in a sourcebook I don't have. If that is the case, what sourcebook can they be found in. Also, do those feats actually give you spells known as well or do they just provide more spell slots and CL? As in if you where a sorcerer, would those feats also allow you to know higher level spells, or just make it so you cast the spells you would normally know as a dual caster at the correct CL? I know if it did the former, it would be highly broken, hence the reason for mystic theurge and other such classes, but it still would be helpful to know.

 

[Celebrim]

I never heard of those feats, so unless they are homebrew they must be in a sourcebook I don't have. If that is the case, what sourcebook can they be found in. Also, do those feats actually give you spells known as well or do they just provide more spell slots and CL? As in if you where a sorcerer, would those feats also allow you to know higher level spells, or just make it so you cast the spells you would normally know as a dual caster at the correct CL? I know if it did the former, it would be highly broken, hence the reason for mystic theurge and other such classes, but it still would be helpful to know.

1) They are homebrew.
2) They provide an increase in caster level progression, so you know more spells and possibly get higher level spells at well.
3) They do almost the exact same thing mechanically as the mystic theurge and similar PrC's (exchange a few feats for increased caster progression) only without the need for a PrC for every possible combination. Actually, for many combinations, they allow lower caster progression than you'd get from a Mystic Theurge, which ultimately lets you get up to something like 15/15 or 17/13 by 20th level. The best you could do with the feats I described would be something like 14/14 or 17/11. The most broken thing you can do with them is something like 19 levels of fighter or rogue and 1 level of cleric to get 5th level clerical spell casting ability at the cost of 3 general feats, but, by 20th level, this is actually not that big of a deal and not much better than just doing something like 15/5.

 

[Asha'man]

I like the sound of those feats, Celebrim, and anything that cuts down on the proliferation of redundant PRCs is good in my eyes, but how is it a feature that they end up making you less powerful than a Mystic Theurge?
I'd say it's been shown pretty conclusively that outside of abusive "tricks" like Precocious Apprentice entry or using it to advance Ur-Priest, the Mystic Theurge isn't all that strong. I'd say ending at 15/15 (or 17/13) is pretty reasonable, myself.

Edit: I need to read more closely. Maybe not if you have CL 20 on both sides. But even then, 14/14 seems a bit on the weak side to me. Care to comment?

 

[Celebrim]

I like the sound of those feats, Celebrim, and anything that cuts down on the proliferation of redundant PRCs is good in my eyes, but how is it a feature that they end up making you less powerful than a Mystic Theurge? I'd say it's been shown pretty conclusively that outside of abusive "tricks" like Precocious Apprentice entry or using it to advance Ur-Priest, the Mystic Theurge isn't all that strong. I'd say ending at 15/15 (or 17/13) is pretty reasonable, myself.

Edit: I need to read more closely. Maybe not if you have CL 20 on both sides. But even then, 14/14 seems a bit on the weak side to me. Care to comment?

My primary goal was not to provide for caster/caster progression but to provide for caster/non-caster progression. In other words, I was much more concerned about providing for fighter/sorcerer, rogue/wizard, or rogue/cleric than I was about wizard/cleric etc. In particular, high level spellcasters even single classed tend to push the boundaries of balance relative to non-spellcasters so doing things that encourage more self-reliance in spellcasters just wasn't a primary goal.

Mystric Theurge is strongest if you take the 17/13 split. Arguably, the most broken use of the feats I outlined is to take something like a 20/8 split, and the 17/11 MT like split is very close to the best MT can provide and in my opinion evened out by the other advantages of the approach. Note for example that if you went 17/13 cleric/wizard in MT, you'd only turn as a 7th level cleric. Using the feat tree you'd be turning as a 13th level cleric. You also would have gotten back at least one feat spent from the Wizard's bonus feats.

Compared to MT, you can't get quite as many spells but its close. You can however do somethings MT can't, namely get the full 20 level spell progression in your primary class and get full CL 20 with all your spells. I believe that given all the considerations, the approach is comparable in power to any of the non-optimized, non-broken synergies provided by WotC.

Compared to MT, you are perhaps slightly weaker at 20th level, but for anything under 15th level or so, you are probably slightly more powerful than MT. IMO the feats are most strong relative to MT when you are in the 'sweetspot' of 3rd to 13th level which is really what I care about the most, since rarely do I play at higher level.

Most of all, I can as I said use this one approach to emulate all the multiclassing combinations in 1e - which was my primary goal. In particular, this lets me convert characters from 1e, like thief-M-U's, in a way that I find satisfying. The real complaints against this approach IMO are less in terms of the raw power at high level, but just how easy it makes to splash spell-casting ability at a comparitively low cost (especially if you are human). However, so far my players have not attempted to abuse 'Practiced Spellcaster' builds. There are some relatively broken builds (at least by my low bar for what broken means) at low levels (shaman/sorcerer/bard, for example), however I think at high level they wash out enough that its not a problem and taken as a whole I think the approach justifies itself if only because its so simple. For example, in another active thread someone is trying to provide a wizard/druid base class and struggling to make it balanced or well-rounded. This provides such a thing in a very straight forward manner without the need for new base classes or PrCs of any sort.

For the record, here are the feats

INTERDISCPLINARY STUDENT [GENERAL]
Your experience informs your skill with all of your abilities.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast 1st level spells
Benefit: For the purpose of determining the effectiveness of your spells, your spell caster level in all of your spell casting classes is equal to your character level.

PRACTICED SPELLCASTER [GENERAL]
You have never abandoned your magical studies, and in fact they’ve become an integral part of everything you do.
Prerequisites: Interdisciplinary Student, character level 6, capable of casting 1st level spells, qualifies for one or more 3rd level bonus spells
Benefit: For the purpose of determining the number of spells you can cast and the number of spells known, treat your level in all of your spell casting classes in which you qualify for at least 3rd level bonus spells, as being two higher, up to a maximum of your character level.

WELL PRACTICED SPELLCASTER [GENERAL]
You are not really pursuing two careers, but inventing a new one.
Prerequisites: Interdisciplinary Student, Practiced Spellcaster, character level 12, capable of casting 4th level spells, qualifies for one or more 6th level bonus spells
Benefit: For the purpose of determining the number of spells you can cast and the number of spells known, treat your level in all of your spell casting classes in which you qualify for at least 6th level bonus spells, as being two higher, up to a maximum of your character level. This stacks with the benefits of Practiced Spellcaster.

 

[rgard]

<SNIP> or using it to advance Ur-Priest

I've played one Wiz/UrP/MT and DM'd 2 and I didn't find it too abusive. While you do get the 9th level spell both in Ur-Priest and Wizard at 20th level, the Ur-Priest maximum spells per level makes it less attractive when you move into Epic levels.

Maybe that is the house rule solution to the MT low to mid-level power lag? You select a primary spell casting class, then the secondary spell casting class. Your primary class uses the its normal PHB spell progression, but the secondary class uses the spell progression of the Ur-Priest PrC and is capped out at 10th level.

For example, you select cleric as the primary class spell casting class. You then select wizard as the secondary class. You advance cleric to 3rd level. You then take 2 levels of wizard, but the wizard spells per day per level are limited to the Ur-Priest spell progression table. After completing 2 levels of wizard, you then enter the MT PrC and carry on from there.

I'll take a look at the books tonight and think some more on this.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Asha'man]

I've been mulling this over for a while, and there's one thing I have to ask Celebrim: How do those feats interact with caster characters who aren't multiclassed into other roles, but have prestige classes that lose caster levels, like the Elemental Savant or Blood Magus? Those feats seem to be a no-brainer choice for such characters. Maybe the loss of two feats makes up for it (most if not all such characters take Practiced Spellcaster anyway) but if the class is well-designed, those caster levels are lost for a reason. It seems that replacing the drawbacks of the PRC with an increased "feat tax" makes characters more uniform and creates even more disincentive to play a straight-classed caster.

From what I've seen of your views on game design/GMing, I wouldn't be surprised if you simply didn't care about those PRCs (most of them are really badly designed, after all) but I'd still like to know your opinion.