(This isn't a complaint, at all; just an experience to share and maybe some discussion over encounter building)
So we have been playing 5e since it came out, but only the low level stuff (HotDQ, where we are 3rd and MoP, also 3rd). We wanted to test out the higher level encounters. The main reason we switched from 4e is because fights in 4e at high levels (we stopped at 18th) just took too long, and therefore ended up drama-free; we wanted to see comparatively how long the fights in 5e at equivalent level would be.
Since it was just a one-off, I converted the level 14 delve from Dungeon Delves, the 4e product. They converted some of their 4e toons to 12th level in 5e. For those who aren't familiar with the product, a delve is a series of 3 linked encounters(rooms) that basically take up an evening of play.
The party was a vengeance paladin, a trickster cleric, a battlemaster, a frenzied berzerker, and a fey pact warlock.
I wanted to test out the encounter building guidelines; my first error was trying for equivalencies: While 6-8 approximately medium encounters make up an adventuring day, that doesn't mean you can compress those into fewer but harder encounters in 5e without a short rest.
First encounter was a mind flayer and 2 umber hulks. Considered a hard encounter for 5 pcs. None of the above are proficient in Int saves, and all have Int as a dump stat. I prepped the delve before I knew what toons were coming in, for those wondering. As you can imagine, they had a hard time with the Illithid and its mind blast. They won, but the cleric used a lot of healing. They were bitter about how that combo of creatures really screws over action economy of the party. Legit complaint, but at least the monsters made thematic sense together (Underdark type deal).
Second encounter, I wanted to test the idea that creatures of CR significantly below the level of the encounter don't affect it for CR purposes. I am not sure this is a good rule; I believe this was my second error. I had 2 drow elite warriors, 1 drow assassin (assassin npc with drow race), 5 drow and 1 mind flayer. A deadly encounter without the 5 drow. They were not insignificant in the fight, and they clearly did make things tougher; they should have 'counted' in other words, despite being CR 1/4.
The party was so banged up after that fight that they could not do the next one, also a deadly encounter (illithid, 3 driders, 5 grimlocks). Paladin had used all his LoH ability, and the cleric had only 3 slots of 1st and 2nd left.
Error on my part #3: Delves as they are classically presented are very hard to do without altering the time of a short rest. They needed one to spend HD after the 2nd encounter, but it would have broke believability for them to rest in room about 100 feet away from the monsters with no intervening door after sounds of combat. To see how it would worked out, I let them spend HD anyway.
I still don't think they could succeed in that last encounter, however.
Things I am taking away from this: If there are going to be several encounters between short rests, none of them can be hard or harder; you cannot 'compress' the adventuring day to eat up resources within a smaller number of encounters by merely making those encounters harder; modifying the amount of time for a short rest may be necessary if one is going to have a sort of classic dungeon crawl; low-level CR creatures should still count (how? not sure...) in high CR encounters.
Maybe some other stuff too. Anyone else have high-level wisdom to share?
(Note: Not the best party to test this stuff out. A fireball or two would have changed encounter 2 a lot. A 2nd healer might have made a difference as well. Someone who is ranged other than the warlock, who spent the entire 2nd fight trying to eyebite people would also have helped. So, not optimal conditions, for sure).
-E
So we have been playing 5e since it came out, but only the low level stuff (HotDQ, where we are 3rd and MoP, also 3rd). We wanted to test out the higher level encounters. The main reason we switched from 4e is because fights in 4e at high levels (we stopped at 18th) just took too long, and therefore ended up drama-free; we wanted to see comparatively how long the fights in 5e at equivalent level would be.
Since it was just a one-off, I converted the level 14 delve from Dungeon Delves, the 4e product. They converted some of their 4e toons to 12th level in 5e. For those who aren't familiar with the product, a delve is a series of 3 linked encounters(rooms) that basically take up an evening of play.
The party was a vengeance paladin, a trickster cleric, a battlemaster, a frenzied berzerker, and a fey pact warlock.
I wanted to test out the encounter building guidelines; my first error was trying for equivalencies: While 6-8 approximately medium encounters make up an adventuring day, that doesn't mean you can compress those into fewer but harder encounters in 5e without a short rest.
First encounter was a mind flayer and 2 umber hulks. Considered a hard encounter for 5 pcs. None of the above are proficient in Int saves, and all have Int as a dump stat. I prepped the delve before I knew what toons were coming in, for those wondering. As you can imagine, they had a hard time with the Illithid and its mind blast. They won, but the cleric used a lot of healing. They were bitter about how that combo of creatures really screws over action economy of the party. Legit complaint, but at least the monsters made thematic sense together (Underdark type deal).
Second encounter, I wanted to test the idea that creatures of CR significantly below the level of the encounter don't affect it for CR purposes. I am not sure this is a good rule; I believe this was my second error. I had 2 drow elite warriors, 1 drow assassin (assassin npc with drow race), 5 drow and 1 mind flayer. A deadly encounter without the 5 drow. They were not insignificant in the fight, and they clearly did make things tougher; they should have 'counted' in other words, despite being CR 1/4.
The party was so banged up after that fight that they could not do the next one, also a deadly encounter (illithid, 3 driders, 5 grimlocks). Paladin had used all his LoH ability, and the cleric had only 3 slots of 1st and 2nd left.
Error on my part #3: Delves as they are classically presented are very hard to do without altering the time of a short rest. They needed one to spend HD after the 2nd encounter, but it would have broke believability for them to rest in room about 100 feet away from the monsters with no intervening door after sounds of combat. To see how it would worked out, I let them spend HD anyway.
I still don't think they could succeed in that last encounter, however.
Things I am taking away from this: If there are going to be several encounters between short rests, none of them can be hard or harder; you cannot 'compress' the adventuring day to eat up resources within a smaller number of encounters by merely making those encounters harder; modifying the amount of time for a short rest may be necessary if one is going to have a sort of classic dungeon crawl; low-level CR creatures should still count (how? not sure...) in high CR encounters.
Maybe some other stuff too. Anyone else have high-level wisdom to share?
(Note: Not the best party to test this stuff out. A fireball or two would have changed encounter 2 a lot. A 2nd healer might have made a difference as well. Someone who is ranged other than the warlock, who spent the entire 2nd fight trying to eyebite people would also have helped. So, not optimal conditions, for sure).
-E
