Dungeon Editorial: Valley of Chaos?

[Thanee]

I don't know, but isn't "adventure" a bit much of a word for a series of one to three encounters in a cave? It's basically Dungeon Delve with caves, right? I'm sure some folks will find it useful to have such encounter areas worked out, but if I pay money for an adventure, I very well expect it to have a story and encounters that tie together and not just a bunch of monsters thrown into a room, that I can also think up in about 10 seconds (or less).

Sorry, but that just doesn't sound exciting to me at all.

Hopefully, those encounters will at least be clever in some way.

Bye
Thanee

 

[S'mon]

if I pay money for an adventure, I very well expect it to have a story and encounters that tie together

One of the good things about Vault of Larin Karr is the way the different locales/adventures are tied in to each other through multiple threads. I hope this takes the same approach, with connections between the caves.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, it's possible that they actually manage to get a better story vs combat number ratio with this approach, assuming that each "cave exploration" has a story attached to it.

Generally, I'd like for them to have more "focused" adventurers. Allow the story, including twists and turns, unfold in less encounters. If they'd try to get something like a 3 act structure, each act should have no more than 2 encounters.

From a story perspective, fighting three encounters of undead to get to the evil cultists doesn't really add much. It is really just there to get you some XP and exercise your combat muscles.

Don't get me wrong. I really enjoy combats. But I would enjoy them more if there was a stronger narrative binding them together. Each combat has its own purpose in the story. If I need to find 4 McGuffins to achieve my next goal, don't give me 4 dungeons filled with monsters. Give me 4 encounters, one for each McGuffin. Or give me 4 adventures, with multiple NPCs and factions working together or against each other (or needed to change from doing the first to the former or vice versa, a mystery to be solved and so on), one for each McGuffin.

To go back to the first published 4E adventure, Keep on the Shadowfell.
[sblock]
I might give them the 4 Kobold Encounters. They migh thave their purpose, because you have your Quest of stopping the Kobold Raids. The story isn't really that exciting and lacks a twist in the middle. The twist comes at the end, when we figure out that the Kobolds work for a Goblin who works for someone else.

The Dragon Burial encounter is pretty much inconsequential. Okay, you might fulfill a quest, but again, no real twists happening during that story.

Then, there is the Keep itself. Several encounters against Goblins, Undead and Hobgoblins and a few local monsters until you get to Kalarel. None of them really advance or twist the story, it is pretty straightforward. The adventure itself would be the same if you boil it down to an encounter against some Goblins at the start and some Hobgoblins at the end before reaching Kalarel.
The story of the slave traders has its appeal, but - it doesn't really lead to much into the adventure. The dungeon is essentially too big and too small at the same time - too many encounters, too little story advancement.
[/sblock]

Mind you, I have my own problems with getting this right when homebrewing. I have to work more on that, too.

 

[Thanee]

One of the good things about Vault of Larin Karr is the way the different locales/adventures are tied in to each other through multiple threads. I hope this takes the same approach, with connections between the caves.

Well, it sure does not sound like that in the quoted snippet in the first post.

But maybe (hopefully ) it will be more than just that.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Korgoth]

but if I pay money for an adventure, I very well expect it to have a story

I'm neither a 4E guy nor a DDI subscriber, but this is the opposite of what I want out of published material.

The only sense in which my gaming has anything to do with "story" is that you could tell a story about the session if you wanted to. I much prefer simply to have sites / situations that the PCs can intervene in or not as they choose.

 

[Vael]

I really like APs, but I think the Scales of War AP has been diminishing the value of Dungeon significantly: the individual episodes are just too big and taking up too much of the word count.

I'm glad to hear that this is changing.

I think doing a full 30-level AP in Dungeon magazine takes up a huge amount of time and space.

Back in the old days of Paizo ... how much of the Dungeon and Dragon magazines was eaten up by APs like Age of Worms and Savage Tide? And, what was the page count of those magazines?

I'm curious about the comparison. I quite like the notion of APs, and I enjoyed reading several of the Paizo ones, but Scales of War hasn't really done it for me. I've stolen a few encounters, but on the whole, it hasn't excited me.

 

[MerricB]

Well, there were several ages of Paizo (and Dungeon) and most of my magazines have been relegated to storage, but...

Issue #135 (final part of the Age of Worms) was a 100 page magazine (as most of them were in the final run).
* Funeral Procession - 14 pages
* Chains of Blackmoor - 17 pages
* Dawn of a New Age - 35 pages.

It also contains one of the worst excesses of the Paizo era: Kyuss, whose full stat block takes up over two pages!

(Note those page counts include full-page art)

Issue #140 (second part of Savage Tide) - 100 pages
* The Bullywug Gambit - 31 pages
* Graymalkin Academy - 17 pages
* Heart of Hellfire Mountain - 17 pages

It should be noted that content in the online magazines is determined by word count and not page length.

Cheers!

 

[Imaro]

Eh, in all honesty this seems like clever marketing spin for what WotC has done for most of their 4e adventures anyway... a string of encounters with only the barest of narrative to tie them together and give the PC's a reason to go through them. I mean even many to most of their published modules (outside of Dungeon magazine) have been this way and they've already published a book of dungeon delves. If anything I would say this style of "adventure" is over represented in WotC material.

The funny thing is that on their boards many subscribers are complaining about Dungeon containing too many dungeoncrawls. That on top of the criticisms of the Scales of War not being up to par as a proper AP... Has me really wondering if it's a smart move. I mean creating encounters is so easy in 4e, that it's not the hard part anymore...it's creating a captivating narrative that I find myself looking moreso for inspiration. I also find this a strange move to make right before DMG 2 is released as it seems to focus on going beyond the "string of encounters" mentality. All IMHO of course.

 

[TerraDave]

It could be really good, and nicely combine with dungeon delve and the similar mini-adventures in draconomnicon and other monster books.

But, we have to see what they come up with.

 

[Rechan]

Eh, in all honesty this seems like clever marketing spin for what WotC has done for most of their 4e adventures anyway... a string of encounters with only the barest of narrative to tie them together and give the PC's a reason to go through them. I mean even many to most of their published modules (outside of Dungeon magazine) have been this way and they've already published a book of dungeon delves. If anything I would say this style of "adventure" is over represented in WotC material.

*cough* Sunless Citadel, Forgotten Forge *cough*