Dungeon layout, map flow and old school game design

[Ourph]

I think Melan's post makes a lot more sense if you inser the caveat "Non-linear dungeon design is better for site-based adventures".

If your intent is to tell a story then you don't want or need the players to make a lot of choices. They follow the pre-arranged steps you've set out for them and you keep their interest by providing interesting encounters and a satisfying story element.

That particular style of gaming is somewhat antithetical to many "old schoolers" perception of the game as being a game. I'm fairly certain that's why it didn't occur to Melan to include the caveat in his original post.

For site-based adventures, where the only story is the PC's exploration and confrontation of the adventuring milieu, meaningful player choice is necessary to keep things from getting boring (and provides rewards to players as they progress through the area by making the information they are gathering about the layout of the dungeon relevant to success/failure) and a non-linear dungeon with many points of access to important encounter areas is an excellent way to showcase and facilitate meaningful player choice. Interesting encounters are, as always, important as well - but for those of you who claim that is the only important aspect I suggest you may be missing out on a significant way to add to the enjoyment of the adventuring environment if you focus only on the details of individual encounters and ignore the importance of dungeon layout.

:edit: If it's not obvious from the above, just wanted to add a wholehearted "Excellent analysis" to my comments.

 

[SWBaxter]

If your intent is to tell a story then you don't want or need the players to make a lot of choices.

Now that's just silly. What you actually want is for them to make choices that are important in the context of the story, just as in a exploration-themed adventure you want them to make choices that are important in the context of discovering new things. Choosing whether to go left or right, to explore this cavern or that labyrinth, probably isn't that important in story terms (but it is pretty critical in an exploration adventure); choosing whether to spare the noncombatant or orcs or choosing to fight or parley with the BBEG is important in a story, while in an exploration adventure it's not a big deal if the group never faces those choices. The key is to figure out what kind of game you're running - which generally means figuring out what kind of game the players like better - and setting up the choices so they matter in that context.

 

[Settembrini]

There is and implicit misunderstanding, which I´ll think I can clear up:

The encounters allow for tactical decisions.
The flow-map allows for strategic decisions.

If you have no possibility to learn about the consequences of your strategic decision, then the strategic choices become irrelevant.

You can have non railroading linear adventures, because you still have power over all tactical decisions.

I prefer adventures, where you can make strategic decisions, which means I have, or are able to get knowledge about what is behind the next "door" i.g. about the next encounter.

@Erik Mona: I loved the Whispering Cairn as a player. BUT:
The multi location nature was of a linear type! From a design perspective, we as players were forced to the next encounters to open the door. Very linear w/o the possibility to make a choice. In a flow-map, it doesn´t make a difference if the next encounter is in the wood of weir or just behind the wooden door, as long as there is no alternative to the next encounter. The forks (links) which come out of a node are the important part, not whether you actually leave the dungeon.
Still, Whispering Cairn had memorable encounters, great graphics very good rhythm to it. One of my favorites!

 

[The Shaman]

I think the map should fit the adventure, but that said, I prefer complex maps to linear ones in most cases because they offer more opportunities for meaningful player choices.

I always create much more material than I actually use, and I don't plan "stories" that require the players to choose from a limited set of options in order to hit plot points along the way, so there's no issue of "wasted" work or players "missing" something.

Back in the day, our AD&D group rotated dungeon masters within a shared setting, so that we could each take turns playing and running games with the same pool of characters. One of the other DMs ran an adventure that involved tracking down an assassin and his minions in abandoned mine, and I followed with a quest for a jeweled idol in a volcanic cavern complex. The subject of linearity came up during my adventure, and all of the players (including the previous DM) preferred my cavern complex because it offered so many choices and much more diversity than my friend's more linear lair.

 

[blargney the second]

That was great! You helped me figure out how to put the finishing touch on an adventure I'm putting together right now. All it needed was for two of the branches to close up into a loop.

Next I'm going to try overlaying your site skeleton with my adventure flowcharts.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Uncovering hidden areas or secrets is yet another form of reward for resourceful players. Finding a secret door leading to a room with treasure is fun

I'd find another reward type! Treasure isn't a reward in 3.x, it's the raw material for power.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Holy mackerel, impressive first post.

The only quibble I'd have with the metagame considrations is that I'd like the dungeons to make sense for the purpose of the NPCs. Defensibility is normally high on the list (adventurers want to kill them and take their stuff) but in other cases, other needs may be important, such as the structure of mining tunnels and so on.

I would want to balance the needs of the group with the needs of the NPCs. Believability helps with fun, for me.

 

[Geoffrey]

Insightful post, Melan.

Thank you for helping me understand why B1: In Search of the Unknown is my favorite introductory module, and why I never cared for T1: The Village of Hommlet. I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking T1 overrated.

 

[Ourph]

If your intent is to tell a story then you don't want or need the players to make a lot of choices.

Now that's just silly. What you actually want is for them to make choices that are important in the context of the story.

Congratulations! You win the Nitpick Olympics.

If you want and need them to make choices "that are important to the context of the story" then the easiest way to do that is to only give them options which advance the context of the story. Which is totally in line with my original point - i.e. linear dungeons are fine for plot-based adventures, not so great for site-based adventures.

 

[SWBaxter]

Congratulations! You win the Nitpick Olympics.

So, noting that your statement was completely wrong is a "nitpick"? Congratulations! You just won the "respond to what I thought I said, not what I actually said" gold medal.