WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

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Maybe not so much here on ENWorld; however, on Twitter and elsewhere...

If there was a concerted effort on "Twitter and elsewhere" to end his livelihood, do you believe that's a bad thing? I do. I think the hobby is much healthier when the first impulse is to reach out with understanding, benefit of the doubt, constructive criticism, reasoned discussion, and, if necessary, forgiveness, rather than outrage, cancellation, punishment and public shaming. Do you agree?
 

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My understanding of why pastiche European-inspired cultures are considered fine but pastiche Asian-inspired cultures in particular are not is thus:

  • Many Asians living outside of Asia are either immigrants, children of immigrants, or otherwise desire a strong connection to the country their family hailed from. Most European Americans don't have that desire, having largely assimilated as "white". The former group cares more about the authenticity of their heritage than the latter (in general).
  • Several Asian countries do not particularly get along well. Japan in particular pissed-off a lot of people during WWII, with the Rising Sun Imperial Flag considered by many as offensive as the Flag of Nazi Germany or the Confederate Flag (I am not an expert on this subject, but my understanding is that Japan has been less apologetic about its actions in WWII than Germany has). So mashing up cultural elements of Japan, a nation who is a former oppressor and occupier of China and Korea, doesn't go over particularly well.
 
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My understanding of why pastiche European-inspired cultures are considered fine but pastiche Asian-inspired cultures in particular are not is thus:

  • Many Asians living outside of Asia are either immigrants, children of immigrants, or otherwise desire a strong connection to the country their family hailed from. Most European Americans don't have that desire, having largely assimilated as "white". The former group cares more about the authenticity of their heritage than the latter (in general).
  • Several Asian countries do not particularly get along well. Japan in particular pissed-off a lot of people during WWII, with the Rising Sun Imperial Flag considered by many as offensive as the Flag of Nazi Germany or the Confederate Flag. So mashing up cultural elements of Japan, a nation who is a former oppressor and occupier of China and Korea, doesn't go over particularly well.
For the record, I feel appropriation of unique ethnicities in Europe is equally problematic.

So, whatever rules of sensitivity apply to Africa, Asia, and elsewhere, apply to Europe too.

The essence is
  • understand before borrowing.
  • use reallife terms accurately.
 

Looks like open public discourse did change his opinion (and without to my knowledge a public cry to end his livelihood.) Very good to see indeed.

I know I am on the other side fo the issue from him on this, but I don't think it is healthy for us to look to social media as a corrective of peoples' ideas. If someone said something that genuinely persuaded him, I think that is fine. But if he changed his mine because he felt pressure, that is exactly the same impulse I am speaking out against when i said asking for the book to come down feels censorious to me. I think we are too much in the habit of dog piling and swarming people on the net. I don't want anyone receiving that kind of treatment. What I want is an open discussion about the ideas, and hopefully from that the best ideas rise to the surface. But if he wants to believe the book should come down, I think it is fine for him to continue to hold that opinion, so long as I am free to voice my concern that it is a bad idea. If he changed his mind, I would want it to be because he was genuinely persuaded and not pressured or rhetorically bludgeoned into taking the position.
 

not to mention the book's focus on creating characters meant to play in a faux-Asian setting (a suggestion in the book that one should not use the material and instead use Western characters seems unlikely from a sales standpoint). I'm happy to be corrected if the book did in fact simultaneously and explicitly do all of these things...
Honestly, I am not sure if it appears in the OA book itself, except as basically a "you could do this", but the OA module series postulates a whole campaign which starts with 'western' PCs traveling to (IIRC) Wa, and then a whole series of loosely linked adventures going forward from there which take them to the various other major polities of Kara-Tur. While I wouldn't exactly label the whole thing "westerners rescuing the East", it is possible to construe it that way (there is some "high level PCs rescue rulers" kind of action, though generally the rulers are themselves super high level).

Beyond that, MECHANICALLY, the OA classes are combat monsters! Martial Arts rules basically mean they are 2-4x tougher in melee combat than a comparable level fighter or ranger. The spell casters are more of a mixed lot, but even the Ninja and Yakusa are probably no more hapless than their western counterpart, the thief (which is pretty weak overall, but still playable in 1e).

In general, I feel like the whole OA presentation is fairly cartoonish; its 'Fantasy Japan' (2 of them oddly) certainly hits all the basic Hollywood tropes. Ninjas lurk in all the shadows, haughty Samurai overlords maintain a ruthless cultural hierarchy, etc. Of course this is not absolute either, if you read the adventures there are all sorts of fairly 3D characters (in at least some of them) that have all sorts of motives and personalities. Still, the whole thing is a pretty superficial pop-culture presentation. Even so, some things like the status of women is handled in an a-historical and more egalitarian way, probably because it suites play of the game (IE you don't want female characters being downtrodden).

I think it is interesting to contrast that with the way Western society of the medieval period is portrayed in the rest of D&D's rules. It is somewhat cartoonish as well, which is to be expected. However, there is more material there, and if you were to dig into the 1e DMG, for example, there's a lot of material there on social structures, governance, economics, and other aspects which is, if not exactly scholarly and complete, is at least drawn from what appears to be a solid amateur understanding of the historical period, coupled with a conscientious attempt to present the material in a form which is both gameable and not wildly inaccurate.

At the very least, I think we can say that it is a fair assertion by Kwan that OA was written by "3 white guys" and it shows. It was also written FOR white guys who were playing out games based on stuff like "Kung Fu" or "The Seven Samurai." There isn't really an attempt to make it more authentic than that. I don't think Cook et al were not interested in the reality of Eastern Asian cultures and such, but they had limited in-depth knowledge, not a lot of research time (the book was written in a VERY short time frame after the original writer failed to produce a usable draft), and for a very non-critical audience who wanted Cartoon Asia. Some of it reads as a bit painful in this day and age.

OTOH, I think the authors and editors had a genuine liking and respect for Asian Culture. I haven't heard any of them speak up on their opinions, but I'd be surprised if the tone wasn't something on the order of "We may have made some mistakes in how we portrayed things, but we really weren't trying to treat the material casually or with any disrespect." I guess I could be wrong, but having heard most of the old-time TSR AD&D guys speak on various topics, they sure don't strike me as jerks or highly prejudiced folks, in general. I also suspect they'd do it a bit differently today. It isn't like TSR was anywhere near as polished a publisher as WotC/Hasbro is today.
 

How do you try to fix the troubles? would you rather to try raise awareness/make aware for the rest of the people willy to do the right actions, or to force others to behove as you order. Maybe the intention is good, but the wrong means. He is sending the message "I have got the power, the authority to forbidd you, to punish you, to force you to obey my will". We shouldn't trust that type of people.

If I say some stereotypes aren't only annoying, but potential dangerous because they can promote later prejudices and hate I will try explain the reasons of my point of view. If I try compel others to do my will because I don't trust people freely to do the right, then the rest will suspect I have got an authoritarian vein. This trouble is like a new wave of satanic panic, but from the other side.

The "chop-suey" cultures in speculative fiction shouldn't be forbidden. The Disney show "Elena of Avalor" is practically a "chop-suey", a mixture of different Hispanoamerican countries, and this serie was produced to be loved by the children of the Hispanic community.

To demand it to be removed only it's causing to be sold even more, like a Streisand effect. This needed more diplomacy and social skills.

Now I start to worry because the own Asian players and publishers could use OA-D&D to try create a utopic fantasy counterpart of their own countries and their neighbours as "affectionate parodies", to say it softly.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I know I am on the other side fo the issue from him on this, but I don't think it is healthy for us to look to social media as a corrective of peoples' ideas. If someone said something that genuinely persuaded him, I think that is fine. But if he changed his mine because he felt pressure, that is exactly the same impulse I am speaking out against when i said asking for the book to come down feels censorious to me. I think we are too much in the habit of dog piling and swarming people on the net. I don't want anyone receiving that kind of treatment. What I want is an open discussion about the ideas, and hopefully from that the best ideas rise to the surface. But if he wants to believe the book should come down, I think it is fine for him to continue to hold that opinion, so long as I am free to voice my concern that it is a bad idea. If he changed his mind, I would want it to be because he was genuinely persuaded and not pressured or rhetorically bludgeoned into taking the position.

agreed.
 

"I don't see a problem... so there is no problem," is the very basis of the basset-hound style racism.

And isn't the problem of racism very much a case of "the majority" over a minority? So, why, indeed, should the majority opinion be our guidepost here?
Sure, but a 'Pastiche' is not automatically derogatory or racist. It is simply a type of treatment of a subject. So, I agree with the fundamental assertion @Bedrockgames is making here, that there's nothing wrong with Pastiches, nor with 'mixing culture'.

while you didn't mention the term 'Cultural Appropriation', I think it is sort of lurking here, and others have stated it. I find that term utterly poisonous and toxic. It is certainly true that someone outside a culture who wants to belittle it and insult it, will have to appropriate its terms, etc. in order to do so. It isn't the appropriation which is the problem, it is the denigration!
Culture does not belong to anyone. Martial arts are not 'owned' by people with a gene that produces an epicanthic fold on the eyelid. To assume otherwise is preposterous and rapidly degenerates into the ridiculous. All the culture we have today is the result of a vast process of differentiation, amalgamation, borrowing, etc. repeated again and again over a period extending far back into prehistory. Culture is the common heritage of all mankind. Zeb Cook had as much right to create OA as any other person on Earth has to do something like that. Given that he took that up, then there is a responsibility to be a decent human being and treat this culture in a fair way, to the best of his ability. But he wasn't obligated to portray it in a perfectly accurate way, or not omit parts, or not combine it with some western values, or whatever. Again, the 'appropriation' is not, and should not, and CANNOT be the issue. The only issue can be the taste with which the treatment was done, and the quality of the results.
 

I know I am on the other side fo the issue from him on this, but I don't think it is healthy for us to look to social media as a corrective of peoples' ideas. If someone said something that genuinely persuaded him, I think that is fine. But if he changed his mine because he felt pressure, that is exactly the same impulse I am speaking out against when i said asking for the book to come down feels censorious to me. I think we are too much in the habit of dog piling and swarming people on the net. I don't want anyone receiving that kind of treatment. What I want is an open discussion about the ideas, and hopefully from that the best ideas rise to the surface. But if he wants to believe the book should come down, I think it is fine for him to continue to hold that opinion, so long as I am free to voice my concern that it is a bad idea. If he changed his mind, I would want it to be because he was genuinely persuaded and not pressured or rhetorically bludgeoned into taking the position.
I must join with @FrogReaver and say that this FUNDAMENTALLY is the essence of democratic civil discourse. I often disagree with people, that is just the human condition. When you insist that those people yield to the force of your political power and essentially bow down and acknowledge your position or else, then you have left the realm of civil discourse and civil society.
Actually, I think a lot of the negative reactions to Kwan probably arise from a gut instinct about this, but you do have to be careful that you also give another person's position some real thought, and not just dig in and say "no, you're trying to boss me around!" Both sides in a debate like this should simply present their positions. So if Kwan thinks WotC should do X, then he says so, and its OK for WotC to say "we think it should be Y, we're doing that" or for Kwan to change his mind and say "Well, OK, you make some good points, Y is OK". Hopefully it stays like that. Sadly even the TT RPG hobby isn't immune to 'social warfare'. The militants should be careful though, by ignoring other people's rights they set a precedent which is likely to bite them back in the end. I think this OA controversy, as I understand it, SO FAR has turned out reasonably positive. I sure hope it stays that way (and that I'm not wrong about how it is going now).
 

I must join with @FrogReaver and say that this FUNDAMENTALLY is the essence of democratic civil discourse. I often disagree with people, that is just the human condition. When you insist that those people yield to the force of your political power and essentially bow down and acknowledge your position or else, then you have left the realm of civil discourse and civil society.
Actually, I think a lot of the negative reactions to Kwan probably arise from a gut instinct about this, but you do have to be careful that you also give another person's position some real thought, and not just dig in and say "no, you're trying to boss me around!" Both sides in a debate like this should simply present their positions. So if Kwan thinks WotC should do X, then he says so, and its OK for WotC to say "we think it should be Y, we're doing that" or for Kwan to change his mind and say "Well, OK, you make some good points, Y is OK". Hopefully it stays like that. Sadly even the TT RPG hobby isn't immune to 'social warfare'. The militants should be careful though, by ignoring other people's rights they set a precedent which is likely to bite them back in the end. I think this OA controversy, as I understand it, SO FAR has turned out reasonably positive. I sure hope it stays that way (and that I'm not wrong about how it is going now).
Indeed. The above is how to debate without hate.

It is the essence of democracy which must protect minority groups from the majority.

Debate? Yes. Hate? No.
 

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