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WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

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What mistake?

Are you saying the quote of you saying "Can bin outdated ideas and books." does not read as an endorsement of Kwan's request for the books to be removed? I have not gone over your later stuff again, so I do not know if you take different positions later, I just re-read the first page again after reading Chaosmancer's assertion and your statements seemed relevant.
Can bin outdated ideas and books means work on them.
I said warnings are good. And open dialogue to address this is good.
Do not make the mistake of saying things for me.
 

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Danzauker

Adventurer
facepalm

Integrating cultures together and growing together is vastly different than looking at a far flung section of the world and defining it as a single monolithic culture.

You can't lump all of South America as being one culture, you can't lump all of Africa as being one Culture, you can't lump all of North America as one culture.

That is an attempt to erase people's cultures instead of appreciate them for what they are.
Why not? i still see no evil in a work of fiction where there's a nation that seems Mexico but has lama riding people throwing bolas and practicing capoeira.

It's fantasy.

And from what I recall, that's not even what OA was. It had different nations in a sort of continent, each of those vaguely resembled one of the most famous Asian country. One was quasi-India, one was quasi-China, one quasi-Japan...

They were all crammed together in a smaller area than the real word just for convenience. Imagine Asia was as big as Europe. That's all.

And the country depictions were sketchy at best. It was a theme sourcebook more that a full setting. And like with every sourcebook, of course, a master/group could just take whatever he wanted. Interested in Japan only? Relocate places and rules in your homebrew and you're done.


In fact, it just hit me of a good example, Olrox was saying that he doesn't mind that pasta and pizza is associated with Italy, because he likes the food and the food culture. Imagine for a moment a book where the great Celtic tribes of England were the inventors of pizza and drank copious amounts of Beck's Beer (a massively popular beer in Germany).

None of that is right. And you might laugh and say "well it doesn't bother me" but let us say that that book went on to sell continuously for fifty years, and that people constantly stopped by your home town asking about the Celtic Pizza. And the company publishing the book made another, and another and another, then movies depicting the same stuff, then comics, then held conventions for Celtic Pizza. All pushing forward this warped view of your world. Can't you imagine, eventually, that it would start to aggravate you? That eventually you would tell them to at least admit that none of that is true, so people would stop associating these cultural things as being one and the same?
Dude, It happens EVERY time an american asks directions for a Pizza Hut here! :D

Don't forget Americans were the inventors of fortune cookies and fettuccine alfredo.
 


Sadras

Hero
Anti-inclusive content
Imagine for a moment a book where the great Celtic tribes of England were the inventors of pizza and drank copious amounts of Beck's Beer (a massively popular beer in Germany).
So many John Lennon fans on this board.
Imagine this. Imagine that.
Reality. Nothing like that was ever done in the book.

And the pastiche complaint, it was done to every culture, people and history period there was. That was/is D&D.
There is no value statement to be made. Kids wanted to play Knights. Kids wanted to play Samurais. Kids wanted to play Barbarians.
The Honour code was there for flavour, a mechanic to assist with/heighten the difference between the cultures of east and west.
Again, not a value mechanic, so there is no need to make it one.

You have people of all ethnicities on both sides of this issue defending and attacking OA. There is no one unified voice.
I think the majority agree that a disclaimer of sorts is sufficient and a worthy compromise.

Now find something real to be offended about and leave our fantasy games alone.

Imagine listening to prior mod warnings about not telling people what they can be offended by. Those admonitions go for EVERYONE.
 
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So many John Lennon fans on this board.
Imagine this. Imagine that.
Reality. Nothing like that was ever done in the book.

And the pastiche complaint, it was done to every culture, people and history period there was. That was/is D&D.
There is no value statement to be made. Kids wanted to play Knights. Kids wanted to play Samurais. Kids wanted to play Barbarians.
The Honour code was there for flavour, a mechanic to assist with/heighten the difference between the cultures of east and west.
Again, not a value mechanic, so there is no need to make it one.

You have people of all ethnicities on both sides of this issue defending and attacking OA. There is no one unified voice.
I think the majority agree that a disclaimer of sorts is sufficient and a worthy compromise.

Now find something real to be offended about and leave our fantasy games alone.
"Only the right people are allowed to voice opinions".
 


Who said anything about right or wrong people. Thats playing legislative distinctiveness.
Why claim it is not something real to be offended about. How would you know. Are you their spokesperson
Why make it so it seems a group cannot voice their opinions. That is not good. Literal intolerance that is.
 


Why not? i still see no evil in a work of fiction where there's a nation that seems Mexico but has lama riding people throwing bolas and practicing capoeira.

It's fantasy.
Being Fantasy isn't an excuse to keep perpetuating the same stereotypes.

I'm glad if the book presented multiple different cultures from multiple different countries, that means there are fewer things to change to make it better.




Dude, It happens EVERY time an american asks directions for a Pizza Hut here! :D

Don't forget Americans were the inventors of fortune cookies and fettuccine alfredo.
I'm very aware.


So many John Lennon fans on this board.
Imagine this. Imagine that.
Reality. Nothing like that was ever done in the book.

And the pastiche complaint, it was done to every culture, people and history period there was. That was/is D&D.
There is no value statement to be made. Kids wanted to play Knights. Kids wanted to play Samurais. Kids wanted to play Barbarians.
The Honour code was there for flavour, a mechanic to assist with/heighten the difference between the cultures of east and west.
Again, not a value mechanic, so there is no need to make it one.

You have people of all ethnicities on both sides of this issue defending and attacking OA. There is no one unified voice.
I think the majority agree that a disclaimer of sorts is sufficient and a worthy compromise.

Now find something real to be offended about and leave our fantasy games alone.

1) Doing it to everyone doesn't make it okay.

2) There is no need to "heighten the difference" between east and west if you are doing it properly in the first place, especially not by an out-dated and silly stereotype.

3) Maybe stop being intractable and let me change my fantasy games to be more appealing to a wider audience? After all, it is my game too.
 

Sadras

Hero
This is a quote from Orcslayer78, from this thread. Since Orcslayer was moderated out, I am posting it manually:
Extremists are never satisfied, they want only the complete desctruction of an hobby finding every small invented reason to be outraged.

The phrasing “invented reason”, is probably the single most intolerant and offensive statement, possible. Essentially it is negating the personhood of others, and saying any viewpoint that, YOU personally don’t see or agree with is artificial, not natural, and thus FAKE.

@Derren, @tommybahama, @Sadras.....I write this with a true spirit of inquiry, as I trust you are posting not as agent provocateurs, (which I can not say for some, alas), but would you be so kind as to explain why you agree with the sentiment? I truly want to understand your viewpoint.
I have posted numerous posts since so I do hope you take into account that I'm ok with a disclaimer page - i think it is the quickest and dirtiest solution to this that makes neither side happy.

You also need to take into account that there are Asian people on both sides of this argument.

Now I have watched the first video and some issues I can empathise with, but the majority of the issues raised by the two are so weak and so uninformed, that I cannot but view it as outrage for the sake of outrage, particularly so in this climate where (1) The Community episode was taken down (2) people are having issues with inherently evil fantastical creatures in an attempt to expunge in-game racism. I mean I get let's remove or balance out the 19th century wording - but why the rest?
When you actually delve into their issues - they're petty. Do not take my word for it - watch the videos yourself and form your own opinion based on how D&D settings came to be, based on the stereotypes we adopted from pop culture...etc
 

Danzauker

Adventurer
Pssst... 🤫 FYI, Fettucine Alfredo was invented in Rome but it certainly became popular and ubiquitous in the US. You can look this up yourself.
I looked it up. and I can assure alfredo sauce as known in america has little to do with the original. ;)
 

Aldarc

Legend
I looked it up. and I can assure alfredo sauce as known in america has little to do with the original. ;)
I know that American’s altered it for their own tastes and preparation sensibilities, but to say that fettuccine alfredo is not Italian is disingenuous.
 

Sadras

Hero
1) Doing it to everyone doesn't make it okay.
It also doesn't make it not ok.
If the stereotypes are fun and done well, they will stand and appeal on their own and the book will sell. It did.
If I want to run something which may be more authentic - I will gladly do the research.

2) There is no need to "heighten the difference" between east and west if you are doing it properly in the first place, especially not by an out-dated and silly stereotype.
5e DMG The Honor ability is also useful in any campaign that revolves around orders of Knights.
Does this not satisfy you?

3) Maybe stop being intractable and let me change my fantasy games to be more appealing to a wider audience? After all, it is my game too.
I have no issue with future material.
 

I know that American’s altered it for their own tastes and preparation sensibilities, but to say that fettuccine alfredo is not Italian is disingenuous.
One thing to keep in mind is American Italian Restaurants are different than italian american home-made. I've been to Italy and there are definitely differences between Italian American Cuisine and Italian Cuisine, but if you are basing your experience off restaurant food, that is way different than the stuff I grew up with my mom, uncles and aunts cooking. I've literally never had a red sauce at a restaurant that tasted remotely like home sauce (EDIT: I don't think I ever even had Alfredo in the household, though there were a lot of variations of simple sauces using either butter or olive oil and cheese).
 
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Danzauker

Adventurer
Being Fantasy isn't an excuse to keep perpetuating the same stereotypes.

I'm glad if the book presented multiple different cultures from multiple different countries, that means there are fewer things to change to make it better.
Stereotypes aren't bad. That's something that you say but not everyone agree. Stereotypes work for a reason. They are ingrained in popular culture. Stereotypes might be boring, but are not automatically offensive. If they are not offensive, what's the problem?

Your comment, anyway, confirms that you are bashing a product that you didn't even read.

I'm very aware.
So?

Aren't they appropriation ad destruction of another culture's heritage? Are those points vaid only when they support your opinion but not mine?

Should I force you to eat things as they should be done? Or can we admit that by putting together something that were not intended to be together can sometimes create something new?
 


MGibster

Legend
That is an attempt to erase people's cultures instead of appreciate them for what they are.
That's bit histrionic I think. D&D itself is an amalgamation of several sources including Europe, the Middle East, and even influenced by little plastic toys from Asia and nobody in their right mind argues that Gygax or others were attempting to erase Greek, Arabian, or Scandinavian culture.

Of course we should create things inspired by Asian cultures. We should just do so in a way better than we have in the past. More sensitive to the harmful tropes and making sure we aren't conflating two things that aren't the same.
I have no disagreement with this as being sensitive to the feelings of others is generally a positive.

Can't you imagine, eventually, that it would start to aggravate you? That eventually you would tell them to at least admit that none of that is true, so people would stop associating these cultural things as being one and the same?
I'm sorry, are a lot of people stopping by Japan, China, or Malaysia and asking the locals about things they've seen in AD&D's Oriental Adventures book over the last 35 years?
 

Sadras

Hero
Why claim it is not something real to be offended about. How would you know. Are you their spokesperson. Why make it so it seems a group cannot voice their opinions. That is not good. Literal intolerance that is.
But is anyone a spokesperson for any group?
They can voice their opinions and they did in a series of long-winded videos, no one stopped them.
I do not have to agree with all or part of their justifications for their offense..
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
One thing to keep in mind is American Italian Restaurants are different than italian american home-made. I've been to Italy and there are definitely differences between Italian American Cuisine and Italian Cuisine, but if you are basing your experience off restaurant food, that is way different than the stuff I grew up with my mom, uncles and aunts cooking. I've literally never had a red sauce at a restaurant that tasted remotely like home sauce.
Moving this to the example of cultural appropriation and more closely to the subject matter ....

What would today's people think of the California Roll? If it came around today?

While the exact history of the California Roll is disputed, it is undisputed that it is a western invention, with a likely origination in Los Angeles, Vancouver, or San Diego. Both "fish-less sushi" using avocado (along with imitation crab and cucumber) and the idea of "inside out sushi" (to emphasize the rice and minimize the seaweed appearance) has long been lauded as a "gateway" for many people to learn to eat more advanced types of Sushi ("spicy tuna" is another western concoction with a similar purpose).

Of course, the California Roll was then "imported" back to Japan, and one of the people who claimed to have invented it was honored by the Japanese government.

A lot of what we take for granted today is the admixture of many sensibilities. Heck, I love Cowboy Bebop; is it wrong for Japanese anime to appropriate American (Black) Culture? What about Samurai Champloo?

Again, there is a fine line that is not always apparent between making sure that we do not use offensive tropes and language ("oriental," blackface and minstrelsy) and recognizing that culture is not monolithic, but grows and changes.

Actually, I was just thinking about Home Game on Netflix; one of the sports they features was Catch Fetiche, which was a Congolese appropriation of Western Wrestling mixed with more traditional Congolese themes. That was spectacular.
 

Stormonu

Legend
I have heard people make valid complaints about the lack of representation in artwork and wish for more settings that aren't so Eurocentric. Until now, I haven't heard anyone argue that we shouldn't create settings inspired by Asia, though there's certainly room for debate over how such projects are implemented as evidence by this thread. But we can't complain about a lack of diversity or a lack of Eurocentric settings and then turn around and complain when someone creates a setting that isn't faux Europe.

And besides, can you imagine the howls of outrage if we took Kung-fu, katanas, and ninjas and attributed them to a European style culture?
Look how much flak there is merely over the Monk - all the calls to remove it from the PHB because "it doesn't fit the Eurocentric view of D&D"
 

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