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WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

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Sadras

Hero
Outcry on social media is easy and free. Fighting the problem where it really is, it's much harder and costs time and effort.
Jon Stewart referred to it as window dressing.

I'm actually waiting for them to call out Mystara - no other D&D setting has taken as much inspiration from real world cultures than the Known World.
 

Reynard

Legend
I think it is worth noting for some in this thread that there is not a call for restricting or eliminating elements related to the history and mythology of the East. What is being called for is to treat that material and the cultures that spawned that material with respect, which Oriental Adventures the book has some difficulty with. So, no, there is no threat of censorship here, nor is there a double standard regarding ethnically European versus non-European material. There is absolutely a place for Asian-influenced fantasy (along with African influenced fantasy and Middle Eastern influenced fantasy and so on).

But Orientalism is real and is harmful. Exoticism is real and is harmful. OA was created is influenced farm more by Western failures to understand Japanese and Chinese culture than by those cultures themselves, coming off a decade or so of Asian exploitation in entertainment. The book trades on racially insensitive stereotypes, and it is self evident that it does so.

No one is saying there should not be Asian influenced fantasy in D&D. They are saying it should be implemented with respect.
 



Voadam

Adventurer
I think it is worth noting for some in this thread that there is not a call for restricting or eliminating elements related to the history and mythology of the East. What is being called for is to treat that material and the cultures that spawned that material with respect, which Oriental Adventures the book has some difficulty with. So, no, there is no threat of censorship here
The literal request is to remove the book from sale.
 

Mirtek

Adventurer
, nor is there a double standard regarding ethnically European versus non-European material.
[...]
OA was created is influenced farm more by Western failures to understand Japanese and Chinese culture than by those cultures themselves,
There is double standard because the european material has been treated with exactly as little respect than the asian material.

The european stuff was created and influenced far more by american failures to understand european culture than by those cultures themselves.

Complaining that the myths and cultures of China, Japan, Malaysia and Korea have just been blended together is a fact.

Complaining that this is a misstreatment specific to asian fantasy is not when the myths and cultures of Greece, France, Germany and England have been just as much been thrown into a blender
 

wingsandsword

Adventurer
At this point, do we here at EnWorld need to troll each other for another 120 pages, on something that is only tangentially related to 5e?
Did ENWorld change somewhere along the way to being ONLY a 5e website?

I mean, it was founded two decades ago as a general RPG fan-site with a focus on D&D 3e and the d20 system, and it's generally kept up with the new editions of D&D.

Did somewhere along the way it become ONLY a 5e site?
 


wingsandsword

Adventurer
No one is saying there should not be Asian influenced fantasy in D&D. They are saying it should be implemented with respect.
. . .and nobody's ever really explained how the D&D treatment of Asian-inspired fantasy is any more "disrespectful" than their treatment of any other real-world culture, including European ones. The closest I've ever seen here is someone trying to say it's inherently racist that a white guy wrote the book, which was the most eye-rollingly absurd thing I'd seen in a while.

You don't think there are thinly-veiled pastiches of European fantasy in D&D that play heavily on stereotypes?

For a typical D&D game, people aren't going to want to learn a whole radically different culture and language and society. . .they're wanting something that feels old-time, maybe a little exotic, as a backdrop to adventure. A "broad strokes" pastiche of a culture is sufficient for those purposes. That's how you've got Faerun being filled with thinly veiled fantasy analogues of Europe, that are about as "respectful" of those lands and cultures as they are of Asian cultures and inspirations.
 

Danzauker

Adventurer
But Orientalism is real and is harmful. Exoticism is real and is harmful. OA was created is influenced farm more by Western failures to understand Japanese and Chinese culture than by those cultures themselves, coming off a decade or so of Asian exploitation in entertainment. The book trades on racially insensitive stereotypes, and it is self evident that it does so.

No one is saying there should not be Asian influenced fantasy in D&D. They are saying it should be implemented with respect.
Seriously, have you ever read a Japanese manga made before the 1980s? Have you the slightest idea on how far they stray from a correct representation of European and American culture and religion?

If I myself, at 12 years old, could digest the fact that depictions of christianity, somatic traits, way of life as they were presented I the works were just based on the little idea of people that knew little or nothing about how they were supposed to be, and, just as often, they couldn't care less because what the author was interested in was what the audienche THOUGHT they were supposed to be, well I believe adults can do the same and not get offended by a 30 years old product.
 





Sadras

Hero
. . .and nobody's ever really explained how the D&D treatment of Asian-inspired fantasy is any more "disrespectful" than their treatment of any other real-world culture, including European ones. The closest I've ever seen here is someone trying to say it's inherently racist that a white guy wrote the book, which was the most eye-rollingly absurd thing I'd seen in a while.

You don't think there are thinly-veiled pastiches of European fantasy in D&D that play heavily on stereotypes?

For a typical D&D game, people aren't going to want to learn a whole radically different culture and language and society. . .they're wanting something that feels old-time, maybe a little exotic, as a backdrop to adventure. A "broad strokes" pastiche of a culture is sufficient for those purposes. That's how you've got Faerun being filled with thinly veiled fantasy analogues of Europe, that are about as "respectful" of those lands and cultures as they are of Asian cultures and inspirations.
I think you may have made an error, the quote is @Reynard 's not @tommybahama's
 

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