WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[prosfilaes]

Why are you quoting from a 30 odd year old version of the MM?

I think the color of monster skin is an overblown issue. More variety would help, and certainly can't hurt, but I don't actually think that greens and blues and dark oranges of some of those skin tones actually index real-world racial groups quite as much or as directly as some people would like to argue.

Because once you've set something up where humanoids are brown, changing them to greens and dark oranges doesn't do as much as you'd like. They still index the same racial groups the original game did. Oh, look they've changed the white people to the variety their diversity advisors told them to, and they've changed the black people humanoids to be greens and dark oranges, just doesn't free the game from its origins.

You haven't exactly made any kind of actual argument here that leads to your conclusion that WotC and Paizo have done the 'bare minimum'.

I didn't write a dissertation, but I did touch on the drow. White (pale) good surface elves and dark evil underground elves is biologically silly and racially problematic. Grey and purple dark elves don't solve that. Realistically pale drow and darker surface elves is biologically realistic, and a lot less racially problematic. But they won't do that because walking away from the racially problematic split is going to cost them more than they will make monetarily.

 

[Mercurius]

It seems like the choices are:

A) 1E Oriental Adventures
1. Remove it from publication.
2. Keep it in publication but add disclaimer of some kind, whether on the product page or an article ("the Disney treatment").
3. As with 2, but donate all proceeds to a relevant charity.
4. Status quo (do nothing).

B) Hypothetical 5E "OA"
1. Don't touch it.
2. Create an OA in-house, try to be as sensitive as possible, but not worry about it too much.
3. As with two, but hire cultural consultant of some kind.
4. Hire Asian freelancers to write it.

Any other options that don't fit into those?

 

[JEB]

It seems like the choices are:

A) 1E Oriental Adventures
1. Remove it from publication.
2. Keep it in publication but add disclaimer of some kind, whether on the product page or an article ("the Disney treatment").
3. As with 2, but donate all proceeds to a relevant charity.
4. Status quo (do nothing).

B) Hypothetical 5E "OA"
1. Don't touch it.
2. Create an OA in-house, try to be as sensitive as possible, but not worry about it too much.
3. As with two, but hire cultural consultant of some kind.
4. Hire Asian freelancers to write it.

Any other options that don't fit into those?

I would think it would be wise for a hypothetical "Kara-Tur Adventurers' Guide" or the like to have both cultural consultants and freelancers involved. I gather that's what they did for Mythic Odysseys of Theros.

Worth noting: the project organizer for the Unbreakable Volume 1 anthology, Jacky Leung, notes in the introduction that he once considered reclaiming and modernizing Kara-Tur. Maybe he'd still be interested in such an update...

 

[FrogReaver]

STD was ok

LOL

 

[Fenris-77]

@prosfilaes - Let me make sure I understand you. So WotC changed the skin colors quite a bit to try and manage the unfortunate racial undertones across the art in their books, but you're arguing that that doesn't matter because they used to be worse? In short, they made a bunch of changes that don't matter because it used to be a bigger problem, so it's still a bigger problem? Forgive me if I find that a bit of a muddle.

I also don't really get what your argument is about the Drow. Sure, black underground elves is silly, biologically speaking. The racial index there is ugly and needs to be addressed somewhow. I'm with you so far. Then you say they won't do that because of X. Is that just your opinion perhaps, despite being phrased declaratively? Is it possible that there might be another solution that you haven't thought of? Or shall we just continue to condemn WotC for something they haven't actually failed to do yet?

They have made some positive changes, and more positive changes are needed would have done the trick here. Unless you're one of those wacky people who think the whole project is unredeemable, or are relentlessly negative about forward progress because it makes you less righteous. I don't don't know you at all, so I have no idea if either of those shoes fit.

 

[prosfilaes]

@prosfilaes - Let me make sure I understand you. So WotC changed the skin colors quite a bit to try and manage the unfortunate racial undertones across the art in their books, but you're arguing that that doesn't matter because they used to be worse? In short, they made a bunch of changes that don't matter because it used to be a bigger problem, so it's still a bigger problem? Forgive me if I find that a bit of a muddle.

It's a bit of a muddle because most of it is your reading into what I wrote. For the second time, I'm going to repeat the context of what I wrote.

I think the color of monster skin is an overblown issue. More variety would help, and certainly can't hurt, but I don't actually think that greens and blues and dark oranges of some of those skin tones actually index real-world racial groups quite as much or as directly as some people would like to argue.

Identifying monsters by skin color is problematic, and changing dark skinned monsters to having weird skin colors doesn't actually do as much as some people would like to argue.

I also don't really get what your argument is about the Drow. ... Or shall we just continue to condemn WotC for something they haven't actually failed to do yet?

This is an issue that's been known for decades. How is it something they haven't actually failed to do yet?

 

[pemerton]

B) Hypothetical 5E "OA"
1. Don't touch it.
2. Create an OA in-house, try to be as sensitive as possible, but not worry about it too much.
3. As with two, but hire cultural consultant of some kind.
4. Hire Asian freelancers to write it.

Any other options that don't fit into those?

Presumably there are people who work for WotC who can play the 3 and/or 4 roles.

The difference between that and 2 is whether authenticity is judged primarily by reference to content or pimarily by reference to authorship/process. This is a very vexed issue in contemporary cultural production.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

I didn't write a dissertation, but I did touch on the drow. White (pale) good surface elves and dark evil underground elves is biologically silly and racially problematic. Grey and purple dark elves don't solve that. Realistically pale drow and darker surface elves is biologically realistic, and a lot less racially problematic. But they won't do that because walking away from the racially problematic split is going to cost them more than they will make monetarily.

I've seen this "solution" proposed before, but I really don't see how switching from a "Curse of Ham" allegory to a "Children of Yakub" allegory "fixes" the Drow.

 

[prosfilaes]

I've seen this "solution" proposed before, but I really don't see how switching from a "Curse of Ham" allegory to a "Children of Yakub" allegory "fixes" the Drow.

It's biologically realistic, which makes it weaker as an allegory. It's not a simple reversal; surface elves have all the colors that they would normally have, from the pale arctic elves to the dark-skinned tropical elves.

Moreover, there's a big cultural difference. Children of Yakub is a countercultural belief held by a few people; it's just not comparable. Look at the list from the original Monster Manual; the tallfellow are clearly superior to other halflings and described as paler. Basically all the good races were paler than the evil races. Having one pale, evil race is hardly setting forth a major overall theme or allegory.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It seems like the choices are:

A) 1E Oriental Adventures
1. Remove it from publication.
2. Keep it in publication but add disclaimer of some kind, whether on the product page or an article ("the Disney treatment").
3. As with 2, but donate all proceeds to a relevant charity.
4. Status quo (do nothing).

B) Hypothetical 5E "OA"
1. Don't touch it.
2. Create an OA in-house, try to be as sensitive as possible, but not worry about it too much.
3. As with two, but hire cultural consultant of some kind.
4. Hire Asian freelancers to write it.

Any other options that don't fit into those?

In so far as B is concerned, I strongly suspect they're going to go with 1. It's the best option to avoid further controversy and complaints, and it doesn't cost them any actual money, as a failed book would. WotC has made a habit for years now of pushing for the broadest appeal possible in their products. I don't think they're going to get that here, so the safest option is not to produce said book at all.