[Dusk] 6 core classes: Spellcasters vs. Non-spellcasters.

[Michael Morris]

This is more of a ramble than a coherent post - and it's a continuation of some things I've brought up before in other threads.

I've decided that Dusk is going to have 6 classes available at 1st level - one for each stat. Fighters (STR), Rogues (DEX), Barbarians (CON), Wizards (INT), Mystics (WIS), and Sorcerers (CHA). One is all new, and the last two are noticably tweaked as explained below.

First off, as I discussed elsewhere, I want to be able to let spellcasters be able to choose their spell lists (Discussed here).

Here are the changes to all PC's

• All Characters gain feats at odd levels, not just every 3rd level. (this means a fighter gets a feat at every level )

The three spellcasting classes change the most. The highlights.

Wizards

• Wizards gain 4 more skill points / level for a total of 6. Their skill list is also expanded outward to include things like forgery and heal.
• Wizards become the only class allowed to use scrolls or conduct spell research. Wizards can actually learn spells which they can't actually prepare or cast for the purposes of teaching and recording them.
• Specialization is gone (it remains available through prestige class).

Sorcerer

• Sorcerers gain 2 more skill points and a slightly wider skill list (Dusk adds at least 2 skill points to each class - I want to encourage a more skill heavy game) with the addition of intimidate, bluff, sense motive, diplomacy.
• Sorcerers go up to a d6 hit die.

Mystic

• Mystics are a weakened cleric class, but the modifications are so severe that I want to make sure the classes aren't confused.
• Mystics have a d6 hit die instead of a d8. Attacks and saves are unchanged.
• Spell progression is the same as a cleric except there are no domain slots.
• Mystics do not spontaneously cast cures or inflicts. Instead they spontaneously cast the spells off their two domain lists.
• Mystics don't necessarily turn or rebuke undead (see below).
• Mystics can use simple weapons and light armor but must use feat slots to gain heavier armors or weapons.

All the spellcasting classes may open up special abilities determined by their spheres of access. For example, Turn undead as a paladin is accessed with WW as your spheres, and as a cleric requires WWWW. Wildshaping is avail at GGGG. I'm looking for something to be given out for CC, CCCC, CCCCCC and CCCCCCCC (For those not familar with MtG, C denotes a color required without specifying what it is).

A spellcasting character has one sphere locked to their current alignment and one sphere for every level of spells they can cast above cantrips which reflect their training.

This all will make spellcasters overall, a tad stronger than normal. To compensate, consider the following.

Fighters

• Fighters gain 2 more skill points and a slightly wider skill list with hide, move silently so, if they choose to spend the points, they can be a bit more stealthy.

Rogue

• With everyone getting more skill points the rogue is getting their bread and butter spoiled a little. They do however gain 4 more skill points for a total of 12 per level. They also have access to all skills (no skill is cross-class to the rogue).

Barbarian

• Barbs jump out to 6 skill points / level.

A nonspellcaster has one sphere locked to their current alignment and one sphere representing their past actions for each odd level they have including the first. Hence they have the same number of spheres as a wizard of their level. These spheres serve to make them more resistant to spells as they rise in level. If the character mutliclasses over to a spellcasting class these don't help (or hinder) their ability to gain spells.

The resistance is +1 vs. the color for each sphere. Hence a fighter who's always stayed Valrean (white) in his alignment would have a +10 save bonus against red & black spells (the enemies of his alignment) at 17th level. To help counteract this new boost for non-spellcasters spell focus and greater spell focus are returned to +2 and +4 as they where in 3.0.

Ok, ramble over. Probably incoherent as I said before - but it's stuff milling in my head.

 

[Michael Morris]

Incidently, the bard, ranger, paladin, druid and monk are still around - they just got prestiged.

 

[Arkhandus]

Wizards

• Wizards gain 4 more skill points / level for a total of 6. Their skill list is also expanded outward to include things like forgery and heal.
• Wizards become the only class allowed to use scrolls or conduct spell research. Wizards can actually learn spells which they can't actually prepare or cast for the purposes of teaching and recording them.
• Specialization is gone (it remains available through prestige class).

How does the learning of unusable spells work? How would they teach such spells to other characters, and what classes would they teach the spells to? Since wizards are the only ones able to use scrolls and the only ones that normally use spellbooks? You got rid of specialization, so how could a wizard not be able to use a spell they researched, if they're not banned from any schools or whatnot?

Sorcerer

• Sorcerers gain 2 more skill points and a slightly wider skill list (Dusk adds at least 2 skill points to each class - I want to encourage a more skill heavy game) with the addition of intimidate, bluff, sense motive, diplomacy.
• Sorcerers go up to a d6 hit die.

So you're quadrupling the wizard's skill points and making them the exclusive users of scrolls and custom spells? Yet the one-trick-pony, errrr, I mean sorcerer, gets measly double skill points and a minor hit die increase? And sorcerers lose access to the scrolls that normally would allow them to maintain a half-way-decently-versatile repertoire? You're very much a wizard person, aren't you? Please give the sorcerer at least one stage better skill points or hit dice, so the wizards don't completely outclass them, pretty please? Wizards will be casting more spells per day whenever they want merely by using their exclusive access to scrolls, yet sorcerers would be stuck with both mediocre spells known and a minimal advantage in spells per day (on a good day, as in, when the wizard has been too harried for the last several days since the last fight to scribe enough scrolls to outdo the sorcerer on that particular day).

Mystic

• Mystics are a weakened cleric class, but the modifications are so severe that I want to make sure the classes aren't confused.
• Mystics have a d6 hit die instead of a d8. Attacks and saves are unchanged.
• Spell progression is the same as a cleric except there are no domain slots.
• Mystics do not spontaneously cast cures or inflicts. Instead they spontaneously cast the spells off their two domain lists.
• Mystics don't necessarily turn or rebuke undead (see below).
• Mystics can use simple weapons and light armor but must use feat slots to gain heavier armors or weapons.

Seems reasonable enough, considering that clerics are normally the strongest class. What skill points will they get? This still leaves the mystic a bit more potent and versatile than the wizard, but that's understandable with their religious obligations and their likely shoving into the role of healer whenever the party is seriously wounded. ........Right?

 

[the Jester]

Michael- looks cool, though I agree that the sorc needs more to stay on par with the wizard. Arkhandus makes some good points. I would suggest:

-increase the sorcerer's rate of feat acquisition (give him bonus feats like a wizard).
-let sorcerers create new spells without researching them. Perhaps one per level or upon gaining access to a new spell level, chosen as the character advances or something? I really think nothing suits a sorcerer more than custom spells- after all, his spells should be a reflection of what lies within.

 

[Michael Morris]

The sorcerer goes to d6 - the wizard stays at d4 (I never said the wizard got a hit die boost).

Note that reliance on scrolls (or any other gimick) is usually a bad idea in Dusk due to some of the "hose" spells floating about in Art of Magic. Spells like this.

Repudiation
Abjuration (Ward) [White]
Level: (5) Sor/Wiz 6, Clr 8

This spell works like anti-magic shell, except repudiation only affects spell-effects created by magic items.

Or this

Price of Progress
Evocation [Force, Red]
Level: (6), Drd 6
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100’ + 10’ / level)
Target: One Creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fort ½
Spell Resistance: Yes

After careful reconsideration, Alexion realized bringing his entire arsenal of magic items wasn’t a good plan.

The targeted creature is dealt 1d6 damage for each magic item it carries to a maximum of 25d6.


Now, after a night of thought, it's a bad ideal to let one class dominate simple items. Scrolls are fine for wizards - so (since I don't have psionics) let sorcerers have cystals (or djores if you prefer) for spell storage and mystics can create holy glyphs of some sort for spell potential storage.


But while we're on magic items, in this setting while magic and spells are fairly common, magic items are not. Part of the reason is that the XP cost of the creation of charged or single use items is doubled and permanent items is quadrupled - further the descruction of a permanent magic item deals damage to the creator equal to half the imbued XP - no save.

 

[the Jester]

Sounds like an interesting setting- I've always seen the Dusk logo and links but never checked it out too thoroughly (as it seemed too heavily based on MtG for my taste). It sounds like there's a lot of mineable stuff in there though- I like the approach you're taking to magic items. However...

- further the descruction of a permanent magic item deals damage to the creator equal to half the imbued XP - no save.

Wait, so if I make a magic item that has a market price of 25000 gp (1000 xp to create), and it gets broken, I take 500 hp of damage without a save?? You might want to reconsider- this will drastically reduce the number of high-powered magic items people are willing to make at high levels. I'd adjust the damage so that items don't deal that kind of damage unless they're really powerful, personally, but you obviously have a vision of the kind of setting you're designing whereas I'm stabbing in the dark.

Anyway, this is an interesting thread, and thanks for sharing your work!

 

[Arkhandus]

Sorry, I made a typo when I said quadrupled the wizard's hit dice, I meant skill points. Didn't notice that until your unusual response. look at it this way: you're giving wizards 4 more skill points per level than sorcerers, while only giving sorcerers a 1-degree improvement in hit die type by comparison, and you were going to limit scrolls to wizards, leaving sorcerers unable to expand their available spells at all (for casting, not learning, of course). Everyone except Wizards of the Coast accepts that the sorcerer is already at least a bit disadvantaged in the core rules compared to wizards.

Sorcerers should at least be kept with the same proportion of usefulness as they have in the core rules; if you're going to bolster the wizard, the sorcerer should receive an equivalent boost. And a d6 hit die is hardly much more use than a d4, they're still fodder unless their Con is mighty and their defensive magic items mightier still. Which doesn't look like it'll be the case. A d6 hit die does not help the sorcerer, and with a sorcerer's extremely limited spell selection, they actually need skill points more than the wizard does, if they intend to have any versatility besides blasting stuff and shielding their piteously fragile bodies.

Also, high-level spells that counter scroll spells are not that significant a deterrent to their use, most especially when the character isn't even close to 10th-level yet, where they'd be most likely to start encountering enemy mages with spells like Repudiation.

And I second what The Jester said.......nobody wants to spontaneously explode just because some thief stole their newly-made nifty magic staff and snapped it in two.

Mind you I'm just providing constructive criticism, not trying to bash you or anything.

 

[Michael Morris]

Sounds like an interesting setting- I've always seen the Dusk logo and links but never checked it out too thoroughly (as it seemed too heavily based on MtG for my taste). It sounds like there's a lot of mineable stuff in there though- I like the approach you're taking to magic items. However...



Wait, so if I make a magic item that has a market price of 25000 gp (1000 xp to create), and it gets broken, I take 500 hp of damage without a save?? You might want to reconsider- this will drastically reduce the number of high-powered magic items people are willing to make at high levels. I'd adjust the damage so that items don't deal that kind of damage unless they're really powerful, personally, but you obviously have a vision of the kind of setting you're designing whereas I'm stabbing in the dark.

Anyway, this is an interesting thread, and thanks for sharing your work!

Yeah, right now I'm rambling and I haven't done the math. I want the high level items to be a potent risk comparable to their power. After all, Sauron wasn't killed by anyone directly - his ring just happened to be dropped in a volcano.

To be fair, high powered items need to be much harder to destroy if the results of their destruction can be so fatal.

 

[Kisanji Arael]

Well, as long as you're rambling, can I make a suggestion which seems to tinker with one of your previous thoughts?

I thought of two things after reading through this.

1. Magic items hurt the maker when broken.

2. That poor, poor sorcerer...

My mind got to spinning and whirring. Well, it said, what if we gave the sorcerer something ridiculous? How ridiculous? We could give the sorcerer the power to imbue items. He could imbue a certain amount of GP worth in magical items equal to his current EXP total. He does it fast, too - remember that sorcerers are nature's batteries, so the sorcerer uses this to the greatest effect. When he's imbuing one of his personal items, it only takes him a day for every 1000 GP he pumps into it. He still pays the EXP cost on the item. He can pull it out at twice that rate. Wait, any item????That's utterly ridiculous. That means that at seventh level he could... I need to sit down. No, wait, I think you're forgetting something. What? If they're destroyed... it hurts them. How much? A lot. Oh. It hits them for 1/4 the EXP they put into the item, and for HP damage up half of what it would normally cost in EXP. So, 1000 EXP put in equals 500 HP damage? Yep, it knocks them down to -9 HP and auto-stabilizes them. Hope they weren't doing anything important.

So... I'm a little crazy. I know this. But just think on it. You know, since we're just rambling.

 

[Michael Morris]

I don't want to markedly change any class more than necessary. That said the sorcerer / wizard needs rethinking..

What about sor to 6 skill points and the wizard to 4. Wiz's with their high intelligence usually get 4 or more extra skill points / level anyway.