[Dusk] The spell point system

[gpetruc]

Summary
I'm writing down a short summary on what appeared in this discussion, before posting additional opinions.

There are some problems in designing a simple spellpoint system for D&D spells, and expecially:
(1) Level Shifting upwards: using most of the spell points to cast spells of the highest level one can cast)
(2) Level Shifting downwards: people casting lots of level-based damage spells (such as fireball) with a much cheaper cost than the possible higher level variants (such as cone of cold, delayed blast fireball)

If one chooses a spell point cost that grows quickly the (1) becomes less important, but the (2) becomes more (unless special precautions are taken)

Let's divide the vast maiority of the D&D spells in three broad category:
A) Damage spells: doing some kind of damage based on the level, with possibly a cap to the maximum damage (such as fireball)
The Damage spells are our main problem: while the psionics have FIXED damage spells, most D&D spells simply do 1d6 damage/caster level up to some cap: higher level spell mostly means a higher cap, and maybe a better range, damage type or secondary effects.

B) Death spells: spells that kill or defeat the enemy without doing damage (such as disintegrate, power work kill, dominate monster).
The Death spells usually become more powerful by raising in level because they have a more difficult save (or no save at all) and/or more deadly effects. Usually they don't depend heavily on caster level.

C) Utility spells (fly, teleport, divinations, buffing spells and so on)
The Utility spells should not give problems: even if they become very cheap when many levels below the highest level someone can cast this is rarely a problem, ad the character could afford either a magic item or some permanent/peristsent spell.

The main idea is to have spells cast at the possible minimum caster level unless an additional cost is paid. Something similar is possible also for the psionics, by using metamagic feats such as Fortify (+25% effect, level +1), Empower (+50%, level +2) and Overpower (+100%, level +3)

There are also many other options of fixing these problems by introducing other rules (such as subdual damage to the caster, fatigue, casting checks, buffer limit, ...)

-------------------------------------------

As an additional effects we would also like to have spellcasters a little less powerful at higher levels (they are considered slightly overpowered by many people) (and maybe a little better at the very first levels).

--------------
Ok.
Have I missed something ?

 

[gpetruc]

Ok. Some This should be my the third (and hopefully last) try.
I first determined the cost for each spell high enough to make level shifting upwards costly.
I gave the sorceror a number of spellpoints enough to cast 4 spells of the four higher levels a caster can cast. (In this way, casting four spells every encounter, that is a little less than 1 spell/round he uses up all of them in 4 encounters).
Then I made the cost so that instead of casting 4 spells of each of those 4 levels you can cast no more than 9 or 10 spells of your highest level. (reducing this to 8 would have casting cost rising too quickly, doubling at each level)

With this number of spell points is about 2/3 of the spells that a sorcerer would be able to cast (without cha bonus)

I've still to find out something to do to fix the (2) problem.
Also I'll have to figure out how (and if) give bonus power points based on high cha/int.

Probably I'd go like this: bonuses on spell known (sorceror) / memorized spells (wizard), and no spell point bonus (easier to balance)

Here are the numbers
Spell cost:
Lvl 0: 1
Lvl 1: 3
Lvl 2: 6
Lvl 3: 10
Lvl 4: 15
Lvl 5: 20
Lvl 6: 30
Lvl 7: 40
Lvl 8: 60
Lvl 9: 90

Spell points (sorceror / wizard)
Lvl 1: 10 / 8
Lvl 2: 15 / 10
Lvl 3: 25 / 20
Lvl 4: 40 / 30
Lvl 5: 60 / 45
Lvl 6: 80 / 60
Lvl 7: 100 / 75
Lvl 8: 130 / 100
Lvl 9: 160 / 120
Lvl 10: 200 / 150
Lvl 11: 250 / 180
Lvl 12: 300 / 230
Lvl 13: 370 / 280
Lvl 14: 440 / 330
Lvl 15: 500 / 380
Lvl 16: 600 / 450
Lvl 17: 700 / 520
Lvl 18: 800 / 600
Lvl 19: 900 / 675
Lvl 20: 1000 / 750

For the other rules:
Sorcerers can apply metamagic on the fly (no time increase) and get bonus known spells by cha.
(maybe I'll also give metamagic but not item-creation feats at level 5, 10, 15, 20)

Wizards (that have 75% of the sorcerer spellpoints) keep spells on the spellbook, memorize them (with the normal 3E rules, using int bonus) but when a spell is cast the memorization is not. Applying metamagic requires to prepare the spell with the metamagic (and so if you want to be able to cast both fireball and empowered fireball you must memorize the two).

What do you think ?

Otherwise I'll try with a simpler scale (using 2 x (or 3 x ?) spell level + 1 to raise caster by one above the minimum) a bit like a pison.

I'd like to avoid adding other rules for now (maybe later we could all make some advanced spellpoint rules with some mechanic such as casting checks or fatigue)

 

[Michael Morris]

The problem in this are as follows:

• Any spell point system that doesn't take into account the caster level of the spell and scale the costs is, IMO, missing the point of having a spellpoint system. There is no reason to replace the slots with such a cumbersome system as it does not offer any real additional flexiability.
• The Dusk spellpoint system is deliberately geared low because this is the only way the setting reinforces it's low magic nature. Without it, given the huge number of spells the setting has the magic would quickly proliferate to the power level of the Forgotten Realms.
• Spellcasters honestly do not need the enough points to replicate their old progressions in standard 3e. This has been playtested quite throuroughly - unless a caster mindlessly blasts away with his most poweful magics like an idiot he won't run out of points that easily.
• Your system in no way prevents a caster from throwing 10 to 12 of their strongest spells. Dusk has no such restrictor either, but also the casters cannot use more than 6 of their strongest spells already.
• You have to have bonus spell points - without them players *will* complain.

I am quite happy with the Caster Level + Spell level costing system. It has worked well for over a year. It does dramatically change how spells are used. It certainly weakens some spells and strengthens others. On the whole it reduces the presence of magic in the setting without totally neutering the spellcasters as most low magic systems attempt to do. It is quite good at balancing the need of the setting to have a lowered occurence of magic with the player's need to feel that they and what magic they have can make a difference.

Anyway, I'm getting very sleepy, so it is high time I went to sleep. Goodnight.

 

[gpetruc]

Well, ...

Spellcasters honestly do not need the enough points to replicate their old progressions in standard 3e. This has been playtested quite throuroughly - unless a caster mindlessly blasts away with his most poweful magics like an idiot he won't run out of points that easily.

I'm giving less that 75% of the spells that they would have in a normal slot system if they didn't have any bonus spells (while usually they'll have lots of them).

* You have to have bonus spell points - without them players *will* complain.

I'm not sure about this. Anyway the idea could be to determine what would be a likely attribute score at the various levels, reduce the base spell points and make the bonus ones so that the total is nearly the same.

The Dusk spellpoint system is deliberately geared low because this is the only way the setting reinforces it's low magic nature.

Ok. I think that is the main point: I was not trying to have a low magic setting, but instead, keeping an average amount of magic, removing the slot system (that sounds really artificial to me, even if it works) and to replace it with something more direct (I think that most computer RPG use spell points expecially for that reason, to keep it simple and straightforward).
(I don't want to make spells rare, even if magic items would probably be rarer in my campaign)

The extra flexibility will have that you could have more spell memorized, even if they would cast less: Sometimes my 4th level wizard had to go around with nearly all his 1st level spells used up with magic missiles (against incorporeal undeads, scarse magic items ...) and that looked dumb, but many times resulted to be more effective than carefully choosing a mixed set of spells.

 

[Michael Morris]

Additional Spellpoint Rules

Now that the basic system has been determined, here are some variations. It is these variances that I hope will help draw out the true character of Magic in Dusk

Marshalling Power or Drawing upon the land
Ultimately magic comes from the land. The following rules add more detail to this process. They *profoundly* affect how all spellcasters use magic.

Under this system spellpoints represent a spellcaster's daily capacity of mana throughout the day. But before a spellpoint can be used, it must be charged. As a free action a spellcaster can draw upon the land for an amount of mana equal to the caster's level + casting ability modifier. As a move equivalent action the caster can call upon twice this amount.

Casters are advised to call upon the mana they need for what they intend to cast. If a character draws more mana than he needs and wants to attempt to hold it for use on the next round he must make a concentration check DC 10+mana held. Failure means some of the mana escapes (exactly how much is determined by the margin of failure) which escapes and burns the caster for 1 hp per mana point. Being struck in combat also prompts this check.

Mana has color determined by the land. Blue mana comes from any sizeable body of moving water with a surface area the size of an acre (a good sized river), or the sea. Green mana is drawn from trees and large plants covering an area of at least an acre. White mana is drawn from open spaces, fields and towns of at least an acre in size. Red mana is drawn from mountainous areas, either large amounts of slope in the area or numerous exposed rocks. Black mana requires stagnant water or large amounts of decaying refuse to be powered.

A caster can draw from any land within a mile / level of the caster, so on the material plane it is rare (save upon the open ocean) to be unable to contact the desired colors of magic. Further, land with multiple features produces multiple times of mana. The outer planes are a different matter - each one only produces one color of mana.

Mana color is important because one-quarter of any spell's cost must match it's color. If the spell has multiple colors each color requires a quarter to match.


Spellpoint Feats
Here are some feats that need the spellpoint rules to be used or be balanced.

Overcharge
You can cast spells from one school beyond your level
Prerequisites: Spell Focus, Heighten Spell
Benefit: Choose a school you have spell focus in. You can overcharge spells in that school. The cost is 2^spell level's over normal maximum. Hence, if you cast a spell 3 levels over your normal cap it will cost 8 points more than the base cost (A 5th level caster casting a 3rd level spell at 8th level of ability pays 16 spell points).
Normal:Normally you cannot exceed your level when casting any spell.

Upkeep
You can decide to pay for durations on the fly.
Prerequisite: Extend Spell
Benefit: You may pay 1 mana to extend the duration of any spell that cannot deal damage one round. You can do this repeatedly.
Normal: Normally you choose the duration based on your own level at the time of casting. If you didn't choose to cast it at a high enough level to make it last long enough for you, that's just too bad.

Well, this is it for now.