Dwarf Barbarians move 20' in medium armor?

[Kwyn]

I had started a thread about dwarves and midway through, we began talking about a dwarf barbarians ability to move at 30' in medium armor. I was told I should ask here, so here ya go.

Kwyn said:

I've seen several posts here talking about how the new dwarf change to medium and heavy armor will result in a dwarf barbarian mantaining his 30 foot movement but I don't think that's how the rules read.

From the Player's Handbook 3.5

Dwarf based land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

A barbarian's land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian's speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

I've seen a half dozen posts or more explaining this, but I guess I just don't get it.

Dwarf base move = 20 feet
Barbarian bonus = +10 feet
Total move = 30 feet
Medium Armor penalty = -10 feet
Net move = 20 feet.

The dwarf ability to wear medium or heavy armor without penalty is worded in such a way that it *only* prevents the speed from droping below 20 feet, not that it prevents it from dropping below whatever modified rate the character might have as a result of fast movement due to class.

I just don't see *anywhere* that it shows a dwarf being able to negate the penalty for wearing medium armor. The actual wording only says that a dwarf is not slowed below 20'

The dwarfs armor exemption would only appear to be invoked if the penalties would drop the movement below 20', which is clearly not the case here.

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Pogre said:

Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).

I see your arguments, but a barbarian's speed is not reduced by medium armor and a normal dwarf is not slowed by medium or heavy loads. Therefore, if a dwarf barbarian is inherently faster by 10 feet, why would medium armor slow him when it does not slow other dwarfs? I guess I do not buy the idea that there is a magic barrier at 20 feet.

I DO understand your point of view, but I think the other view has a legitimate argument. One that sways me at least.


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Green Knight said:

I see your arguments, but a barbarian's speed is not reduced by medium armor and a normal dwarf is not slowed by medium or heavy loads. Therefore, if a dwarf barbarian is inherently faster by 10 feet, why would medium armor slow him when it does not slow other dwarfs? I guess I do not buy the idea that there is a magic barrier at 20 feet.

I DO understand your point of view, but I think the other view has a legitimate argument. One that sways me at least.

Agreed. I just checked my 3.5 PHB, and it says that Barbarians still get their Fast Movement when in Medium Armor. Which means that the Barbarian in Medium Armor moves 30 ft. (Whereas the Barbarian in Light or no armor moves 40 ft. At least the ones that moved 30 ft. to begin with, I.E. Humans, elves, etc).

So yeah, a Dwarf Barbarian, at least when not wearing Heavy Armor or carrying a Heavy Load, moves 30 ft.

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Olgar Shiverstone

Agreed. I just checked my 3.5 PHB, and it says that Barbarians still get their Fast Movement when in Medium Armor. Which means that the Barbarian in Medium Armor moves 30 ft. (Whereas the Barbarian in Light or no armor moves 40 ft. At least the ones that moved 30 ft. to begin with, I.E. Humans, elves, etc).

So yeah, a Dwarf Barbarian, at least when not wearing Heavy Armor or carrying a Heavy Load, moves 30 ft.

Except for two sentences down, where it says "when wearing medium armor or carrying a medium load, his speed drops to 30 feet". The barbarian fast movement description contradicts itself!

The SRD text says:

Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

But the PHB goes on to say:

For example, a human barbarian has a speed of 40 feet, rather than 30 feet, when wearing light or no armor. When wearing medium armor or carrying a medium load, his speed drops to 30 feet ... (similar text for halfling barbarian).

Sloppy, sloppy, WOTC! Which is it? I'd default to the rules text (ie, SRD) rather than the example, I guess.

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Green Knight said:

Except for two sentences down, where it says "when wearing medium armor or carrying a medium load, his speed drops to 30 feet". The barbarian fast movement description contradicts itself!

Yeah, that was sloppy wording. That should more properly say that the movement bonus is applied AFTER the Speed is modified by the armor or weight load (Either that, or Medium/Heavy Loads and Medium/Heavy Armor should subtract 10 feet from movement for Medium creatures, and 5 feet for Small creatures, rather than giving a fixed number).

But whatever the case, the intent is pretty clearly. Namely that your half-orc barbarian in chainmail can move 30 ft., while the one in leather armor can move 40 ft (And in this case, I take the Example over the SRD any day. Why? Because Examples are where the writers can most clearly get across their intent with a ruling. They may screw up the wording of the ruling, but it's pretty clear from the example that a human barbarian in medium armor is supposed to move 30 ft). After all, the SRD says the following:

Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

If it were any other way, then what benefit is provided by Fast Movement for someone wearing Medium Armor? None at all, and I doubt that was the intent. That part should read:

Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus after modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

Change that one word and the whole thing makes perfect sense, and it's in line with the example in the PHB.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find it more likely that WoTC screwed up just the one word, rather than them screwing up an entire example, as well as saying that there's a benefit to someone in Medium Armor when none exists

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[Darklone]

I don't like dwarven barbarians in armour. Dwarven barbarians should have tattoos, scars, waraxes in both hands and no armour.

 

[The Souljourner]

In the encumbrance section where it talks about reduced movement for armor and encumbrance, it specifically says something on the order of "except dwarves, who are not affected by these reductions". I'd have to go with the dwarven barbarians in medium armor moving 30'.

My sense is that any dwarf wearing medium or heavy armor was intended to always move the same speed as an equivalently classed human in the same armor. Human barbarian in medium armor moves 30', and so does a dwarven barbarian.

-The Souljourner

 

[CrimsonTemplar]

I'd have to say that my opinion is that a Dwarf Barbarian in Medium Armor should have a base move of 30' in 3.5. WotC made a bid deal about how the 3.5 Dwarves aren't going to be penalized by Medium and Heavy Armors as a racial feature, just like being able to wield a Dwarven Waraxe w/o taking the EWP Feat.

Now until there's an official eratta (sp?) to the contrary or if my GM says otherwise I will play it that he has a base move of 30'.

 

[Camarath]

This is my take on this issue

• Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).

I think that "at this speed" in the second sentence refers to the characters base speed as defined in the first sentence.

Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

IMO this ability alters the character's base speed.

So I think after the addition of the Fast Movement ability a Barbarian Dwarf's speed entry should read as such:

]• Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet or 30ft when wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).

 

[mooby]

I don't understand how this is even an issue.

Of course Dwarven Barbarians move 30' in Medium armor.

KISS

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

 

[frankthedm]

I don't like dwarven barbarians in armour. Dwarven barbarians should have tattoos, scars, waraxes in both hands and no armour.

Reaper miniatures agrees with you.

 

[Jack Daniel]

[Posted edited on count of brainfart-level stupidity.]

 

[Camarath]

A dwarf barbarian has a speed of 30 feet in light or no armor and 20 feet in medium or heavy armor; no ifs, ands, or buts. When a barbarian character wears medium or heavy armor, the Fast Movement class feature is disabled, just like a monk wearing any sort of armor.

You are wrong. Read the Fast Movement ability again, it clearly states that a Barbarian gets his speed increase wile wearing medium armor.

From SRD
Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

 

[Spatzimaus]

When a barbarian character wears medium or heavy armor, the Fast Movement class feature is disabled, just like a monk wearing any sort of armor.

Except that Barbarians only lose Fast Movement in heavy armor or with a heavy load, not medium armor. Which explains why the title of the thread explicitly states "in medium armor". Rangers are the ones that lose abilities in medium or heavy.

I'd go with the 30' speed too. Barbarian says +10' before reducing for armor or load; Dwarf says "Dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor, or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations)". The parenthetical clause implies to me that Dwarves are simply immune to the speed reduction from armor altogether.

It's not just about Barbarians, either; Expeditious Retreat increases "base land speed" by 30' and Longstrider increases it by 10'. In the Tactical Movement section of the PHB it explicitly states that movement bonuses (including the Barbarian "foot bonus") are taken into account before reductions for armor or encumbrace. So, does this mean a Human in heavy armor with Expeditious Retreat on moves (30' + 30')*2/3 = 40' while a Dwarf in the same situation would move (20' + 30') = 50'?