Dwarf Barbarians move 20' in medium armor?

[Lord Pendragon]

So it seems the discussion here is whether the dwarven ability should be interpreted as:

A. A dwarf in medium/heavy armor, or medium/heavy encumbrance ignores armor movement penalties.

or

B. A dwarf's movement rate cannot be brought below 20' due to medium/heavy armor/encumbrance.

If it's A, then yes, a dwarven barbarian would have a 30' movement in medium armor, since the +10' would be added to his base movement, and he ignores the -10' due to his medium armor.

If it's B, then no, a dwarven barbarian would still only move 20', since Fast Movement would give him a 30' movement, but the armor could and would bring that back down to 20'.

I'd rule B. The dwarven ability seems specifically worded to mean B, rather than A. A dwarven fighter is in the same boat as a human fighter, if both are wearing full plate. But a dwarven barbarian is also in the same boat as a human barbarian, if both are wearing chainmail.

 

[CrimsonTemplar]

So it seems the discussion here is whether the dwarven ability should be interpreted as:

A. A dwarf in medium/heavy armor, or medium/heavy encumbrance ignores armor movement penalties.

or

B. A dwarf's movement rate cannot be brought below 20' due to medium/heavy armor/encumbrance.

If it's A, then yes, a dwarven barbarian would have a 30' movement in medium armor, since the +10' would be added to his base movement, and he ignores the -10' due to his medium armor.

If it's B, then no, a dwarven barbarian would still only move 20', since Fast Movement would give him a 30' movement, but the armor could and would bring that back down to 20'.

I'd rule B. The dwarven ability seems specifically worded to mean B, rather than A. A dwarven fighter is in the same boat as a human fighter, if both are wearing full plate. But a dwarven barbarian is also in the same boat as a human barbarian, if both are wearing chainmail.

I'm really having a problem seeing how you come to this conclusion. Consider it from this direction, he's a Dwarf first and a Barbarian second. Dwarves suffer no movement penalties for Medium and Heavy Armor or while bearing a Medium or Heavy Load. As such a Dwarf in a Breastplate will move 20' base & a Human in a Breastplate will move 20' base due to movement penalties for wearing Medium Armor. A Dwarf in Full Plate will move 20' base & a Human in Full Plate will move 20' base due to movement penalties for wearing Heavy Armor.

Barbarians get a +10' added to their base land speed. Since a Dwarf's base land speed is always 20' a Dwarf Barbarian should have a base land speed of 30'.

The only way I would accept a Dwarf Barbarian moving at only 20' while wearing Medium Armor would be is if Human Barbarians only moved at 20' in Medium Armor as well.

Relevant citations from PHB:

From the Player's Handbook 3.5
Quote:

Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

Quote:

A barbarian's land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian's speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I don't see any way to explain it better than I already did, Crimson. I don't see the dwarf's racial ability as allowing him to ignore medium/heavy armor/encumbrance penalties. The ability merely prevents such penalties from dropping the dwarf's move below 20'.

So a dwarven fighter would normally suffer -10' due to chainmail, but since that would drop him below 20', he still moves 20'.

But a dwarven barbarian with a base 30' move will still suffer the -10' penalty due to chainmail, because that doesn't drop him below 20'.

Basically, the dwarven racial ability is a lower limit on how much encumbrance can slow a dwarf down.

Let me try another tack. You are taking a dwarf (move 20'), adding his medium armor (still move 20' since the dwarf cannot be brought below 20' due to armor/encumbrance) and then applying the barbarian bonus +10' to get a final result of 30'.

I am taking a dwarf (move 20'), adding his barbarian levels (+10' base move= 30'), and then subracting his armor movement penalty (-10') for a final result of 20'.

And to look at it yet another way, refering to the passage you quoted,

Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

...you seem to interpret this speed as meaning the dwarf's base land speed. I take it to mean 20'.

 

[Caliban]

And to look at it yet another way, refering to the passage you quoted,...you seem to interpret this speed as meaning the dwarf's base land speed. I take it to mean 20'.

I would only take it to mean 20' if that is indeed the base land speed of the dwarf in question. Thing is, barbarian dwarves don't have a 20' base land speed.

Anyone else reminded of Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail?

Bridgekeeper: Hee hee heh. Stop! What... is your name?
Arthur: It is 'Arthur', King of the Britons.
Bridgekeeper: What... is your quest?
Arthur: To seek the Holy Grail.
Bridgekeeper: What... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
Arthur: What do you mean? An African or European swallow?
Bridgekeeper: Huh? I-- I don't know that! Auuuuuuuugh!
Bedevere: How do know so much about swallows?
Arthur: Well, you have to know these things when you're a king, you know.

 

[Camarath]

you seem to interpret this speed as meaning the dwarf's base land speed. I take it to mean 20'.

IMO if the Dwarf’s base speed changes that should change the reading of the first sentence. For a Dwarf Barbarian the statement "Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet." is not entirely true. A Dwarf Barbarian's base land speed is 20 feet or 30 feet when wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. If "this speed" refers to an inalterable 20 feet speed why doesn’t the second sentence state that? It only seem appropriate to use the much less specific designator of “this speed” if it is suppose to refer to the Dwarf's base speed at what ever value it becomes rather than a flat 20ft value.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

It only seem appropriate to use the much less specific designator of “this speed” if it is suppose to refer to the Dwarf's base speed at what ever value it becomes rather than a flat 20ft value.

If D&D always followed such rules of what was "appropriate" I might buy that argument, but as it is, I do not.

I'm not looking to argue guys, because frankly, you aren't going to change my mind. I fully understand the arguments for the other interpretation, but I just don't agree with them. "This speed" is supposed to refer to 20ft, the speed referred to in the first part of the sentence, rather than a "dwarf's base land speed" variable. If they had meant base land speed, the sentence would have read:

Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at their base land speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

It doesn't say that, because "this speed" refers to the speed listed, 20ft.

 

[Caliban]

It doesn't say that, because "this speed" refers to the speed listed, 20ft.

But 20 ft refers to the dwarf's base land speed.

At least you admit your mind is closed.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

But 20 ft refers to the dwarf's base land speed.

At least you admit your mind is closed.

As much as yours is, Caliban. And the 20ft. refers to 20ft. The "this speed" and the "dwarf's base land speed" in the sentence both refer to it, not the other way around.

 

[Caliban]

As much as yours is, Caliban. And the 20ft. refers to 20ft. The "this speed" and the "dwarf's base land speed" in the sentence both refer to it, not the other way around.

I'm not trying to be close minded, your arguement just doesn't make any sense to me.

Sorry.