Dwarf druid shapechanging - vision issue.

[Kalendraf]

I've been following Skip Williams explanations on polymorph and his latest article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a) led to a question that I haven't been able to answer.

The character in question is a dwarf druid who is shapechanging into a bat. According to the polymorph article, when a druid shapechanges, they do not get any of the exceptional non-attack abilities of the new form. In the case of the bat, that would include blindsense 20'.

As weird as it may seem to have a bat that can't actually use echo-location to see, I can understand the principle behind this. I'm assuming then that the druid in bat form must keep his existing vision or something like that.

However, after further reading, I'm not so sure. In the 3.5 PHB, wildshape refers to Polymorph which in turn refers back to Alter Self (gotta luv that page flipping ). In the entry for Alter Self, this statement appears to be key:

"You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels."

Since Darkvision is an extraordinary quality from race, and not class, it looks like the dwarf druid loses darkvision anytime they use wildshape. Is that correct?

 

[the Jester]

Looks that way to me.

Note that some bats actually have pretty good eyes.

 

[Kalendraf]

I thought bats had rather poor eyesight, hence the expression "blind as a bat". However, I haven't done a lot of investigation on bats, so I could be wrong.

Of course if the druid loses darkvision in batform, he'll probably think of it as being "blind as a bat"

 

[the Jester]

I thought bats had rather poor eyesight, hence the expression "blind as a bat". However, I haven't done a lot of investigation on bats, so I could be wrong.

The expression is actually somewhat misleading- I'm no expert, but I believe some bats actually have very good vision.

 

[Mort_Q]

The expression is actually somewhat misleading- I'm no expert, but I believe some bats actually have very good vision.

http://www.arkive.org/species/ARK/mammals/Plecotus_auritus/more_info.html

http://www.hws.edu/news/update/showwebclip.asp?webclipid=924

It seems to depend on the bat... some tend to rely more on their echolocation than others.

 

[DonaldRumsfeldsTofu]

Am I the only one who thinks the "not gaining the creature's extraordinary qualities" thing doesn't make sense? I am now a completely different creature, but things that are non-magical innate parts of that creature's anatomy for some reason don't work.

 

[Kalendraf]

Since you keep your own stats for int, wis and cha, it makes sense to me that your brain simply can't comprehend all the natural abilities of that type of creature, especially new senses. On the other hand, combat-related ones (knowing how to swing and grasp with a claw for example) are likely much more easy to adapt and use.

 

[nharwell]

Since you keep your own stats for int, wis and cha, it makes sense to me that your brain simply can't comprehend all the natural abilities of that type of creature, especially new senses. On the other hand, combat-related ones (knowing how to swing and grasp with a claw for example) are likely much more easy to adapt and use.

A well-spoken justification for perhaps the stupidest spell ruling yet in D&D 3.x. Nonetheless, I remain unconvinced. I get armor and weapon proficiencies from changing form, but not vision? A remarkably un-intuitive approach to form-changing spells...

 

[Saeviomagy]

A well-spoken justification for perhaps the stupidest spell ruling yet in D&D 3.x. Nonetheless, I remain unconvinced. I get armor and weapon proficiencies from changing form, but not vision? A remarkably un-intuitive approach to form-changing spells...

The best is yet to come. Once you hit 13th level, you'll get 'thousand faces' - the ability to assume forms as per alter self.

Whatever you do, don't become a dwarf - you'll lose your darkvision. You know, the one that you've got from being a dwarf? But that you lose now that you've become a dwarf.

Stupid.

My suggestion - ignore skip, and adjudicate alter self how it is in the books. Oh, and call systems of vision "natural abilities".