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<blockquote data-quote="Guilt Puppy" data-source="post: 570090" data-attributes="member: 6521">...as well as Giant's Toughness, and Dragon's Toughness, (from MotW) struck me as a little off the first time I saw them. Especially since they're available as Fighter bonus feats, meaning you can really max out on them...Plus, there's an exploit: They're based on Fort save, so you can multiclass to qualify really quickly. Here, friends, is an example of the pain:[code]Dwarf starting Con 18 + 2 racial = 20Lvl&nbsp; Class&nbsp; Fort&nbsp; Feats&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Con&nbsp;&nbsp; HD +Con+Fts=&nbsp;&nbsp; HP&nbsp; w/Magic==================================================================1&nbsp; &nbsp; Brb&nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; Toughness&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 12&nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 202&nbsp; &nbsp; Drd&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; 16.&nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 293&nbsp; &nbsp; Rgr&nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; Dw's Tghness&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 22&nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 464&nbsp; &nbsp; Clr&nbsp; &nbsp; +8&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 21&nbsp;&nbsp; 26.&nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 555&nbsp; &nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +10&nbsp; &nbsp; Gi's Tghness&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 32&nbsp; 25&nbsp;&nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; 756&nbsp; &nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +11&nbsp; &nbsp; Dr's Tgh x2&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; 37.&nbsp; 30&nbsp;&nbsp; 42&nbsp;&nbsp; 109&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +11&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 43&nbsp; 35&nbsp;&nbsp; 42&nbsp;&nbsp; 120&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1278&nbsp; &nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +12&nbsp; &nbsp; Dr's Tgh&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 22&nbsp;&nbsp; 48.&nbsp; 48&nbsp;&nbsp; 54&nbsp;&nbsp; 150&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1589&nbsp; &nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +12&nbsp; &nbsp; Dr's Tgh&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 54&nbsp; 54&nbsp;&nbsp; 66&nbsp;&nbsp; 174&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 18310&nbsp;&nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +13&nbsp; &nbsp; Dr's Tgh&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; 59.&nbsp; 60&nbsp;&nbsp; 78&nbsp;&nbsp; 197&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 20711&nbsp;&nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +13&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 65&nbsp; 66&nbsp;&nbsp; 78&nbsp;&nbsp; 209&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 23112&nbsp;&nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +14&nbsp; &nbsp; Dr's Tgh x2&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 23&nbsp;&nbsp; 70.&nbsp; 72&nbsp; 102&nbsp;&nbsp; 244&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 26813&nbsp;&nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +14&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 76&nbsp; 78&nbsp; 102&nbsp;&nbsp; 256&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 28214&nbsp;&nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +15&nbsp; &nbsp; Dr's Tgh&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; 81.&nbsp; 84&nbsp; 114&nbsp;&nbsp; 279&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 32115&nbsp;&nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +15&nbsp; &nbsp; Dr's Tgh&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 87&nbsp; 90&nbsp; 126&nbsp;&nbsp; 293&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 33816&nbsp;&nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +16&nbsp; &nbsp; Dr's Tgh&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 24&nbsp;&nbsp; 92. 112&nbsp; 138&nbsp;&nbsp; 332&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 38017&nbsp;&nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +16&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 98 119&nbsp; 138&nbsp;&nbsp; 345&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 39618&nbsp;&nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +17&nbsp; &nbsp; Dr's Tgh x2&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp;&nbsp; 103. 126&nbsp; 162&nbsp;&nbsp; 381&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 43519&nbsp;&nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +17&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; 109 133&nbsp; 162&nbsp;&nbsp; 394&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 45120&nbsp;&nbsp; Ftr&nbsp;&nbsp; +18&nbsp; &nbsp; Dr's Tgh&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 25&nbsp; 104. 140&nbsp; 174&nbsp;&nbsp; 418&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 478Amulet of Health +2:&nbsp; 4000 -- 7th levelAmulet of Health +4: 16000 -- 11th levelAmulet of Health +6: 32000 -- 14th level[/code](Let's pray that table comes out alright, heh)As you can see, this friendly fellow without any PrC's or any multiclassing penalties is topping the 100 mark at sixth level, without magic items (I limited myself to one-fourth of total gear cost per Amulet of Health: A lot, but considering it's a character clearly focused on hit points, it seemed pretty reasonable.)Also, remember that level of Cleric and that level of Druid: Extends the max hit points out just a little bit more per day. (Also, remember he gains to hit points per level each time he Rages -- meaning he passes 500 at level 20, w/ magic items of course).So, the question is -- is this a balanced tradeoff? Does the loss of all the feats justify having many times over the number of hit points of other group members? Are there appropriate encounters for a party with this character in it (assume no one else is munching)?If not, well, it may just be nerfing time... I'm not sure on my own, however -- that's a lot of feats to sacrifice, and while he gets a little candy out of the multi-classing (Track, Ambi/TWF, 1st-level spells twice-over, fast movement, and rage) he'll still be nowhere near as versatile a warrior as others of his level. But so long as he's packing the best greataxe (or a pair of shortswords) he can afford with the rest of his money, he'll probably be dealing decent damage... He'll probably want to invest a fair share in armor as well, although it's clear he can afford to take a hit (even for massive damage -- his fort saves are mean as you'd imagine)If I can think of a disadvantage, it's just trying to heal this monster, especially at earlier levels... The rest of the party will need healing, so in practice you'd probably rarely be at full hit points (although half hit points with this character is no great danger.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Guilt Puppy, post: 570090, member: 6521"] ...as well as Giant's Toughness, and Dragon's Toughness, (from MotW) struck me as a little [i]off[/i] the first time I saw them. Especially since they're available as Fighter bonus feats, meaning you can really max out on them... Plus, there's an exploit: They're based on Fort save, so you can multiclass to qualify really quickly. Here, friends, is an example of the pain: [code] Dwarf starting Con 18 + 2 racial = 20 Lvl Class Fort Feats Con HD +Con+Fts= HP w/Magic ================================================================== 1 Brb +2 Toughness - 12 5 3 20 2 Drd +4 - - 16. 10 3 29 3 Rgr +6 Dw's Tghness - 22 15 9 46 4 Clr +8 - 21 26. 20 9 55 5 Ftr +10 Gi's Tghness - 32 25 18 75 6 Ftr +11 Dr's Tgh x2 - 37. 30 42 109 7 Ftr +11 - - 43 35 42 120 127 8 Ftr +12 Dr's Tgh 22 48. 48 54 150 158 9 Ftr +12 Dr's Tgh - 54 54 66 174 183 10 Ftr +13 Dr's Tgh - 59. 60 78 197 207 11 Ftr +13 - - 65 66 78 209 231 12 Ftr +14 Dr's Tgh x2 23 70. 72 102 244 268 13 Ftr +14 - - 76 78 102 256 282 14 Ftr +15 Dr's Tgh - 81. 84 114 279 321 15 Ftr +15 Dr's Tgh - 87 90 126 293 338 16 Ftr +16 Dr's Tgh 24 92. 112 138 332 380 17 Ftr +16 - - 98 119 138 345 396 18 Ftr +17 Dr's Tgh x2 - 103. 126 162 381 435 19 Ftr +17 - - 109 133 162 394 451 20 Ftr +18 Dr's Tgh 25 104. 140 174 418 478 Amulet of Health +2: 4000 -- 7th level Amulet of Health +4: 16000 -- 11th level Amulet of Health +6: 32000 -- 14th level [/code] (Let's pray that table comes out alright, heh) As you can see, this friendly fellow without any PrC's or any multiclassing penalties is topping the 100 mark at sixth level, [i]without[/i] magic items (I limited myself to one-fourth of total gear cost per Amulet of Health: A lot, but considering it's a character clearly focused on hit points, it seemed pretty reasonable.) Also, remember that level of Cleric and that level of Druid: Extends the max hit points out [i]just[/i] a little bit more per day. (Also, remember he gains to hit points per level each time he Rages -- meaning he passes 500 at level 20, w/ magic items of course). So, the question is -- is this a balanced tradeoff? Does the loss of all the feats justify having many times over the number of hit points of other group members? Are there appropriate encounters for a party with this character in it (assume no one else is munching)? If not, well, it may just be nerfing time... I'm not sure on my own, however -- that's a lot of feats to sacrifice, and while he gets a little candy out of the multi-classing (Track, Ambi/TWF, 1st-level spells twice-over, fast movement, and rage) he'll still be nowhere near as versatile a warrior as others of his level. But so long as he's packing the best greataxe (or a pair of shortswords) he can afford with the rest of his money, he'll probably be dealing decent damage... He'll probably want to invest a fair share in armor as well, although it's clear he can afford to take a hit (even for massive damage -- his fort saves are mean as you'd imagine) If I can think of a disadvantage, it's just trying to [i]heal[/i] this monster, especially at earlier levels... The rest of the party will need healing, so in practice you'd probably rarely be at full hit points (although half hit points with this character is no great danger.) [/QUOTE]

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