Dwarf's Toughness

[Guilt Puppy]

...as well as Giant's Toughness, and Dragon's Toughness, (from MotW) struck me as a little off the first time I saw them. Especially since they're available as Fighter bonus feats, meaning you can really max out on them...

Plus, there's an exploit: They're based on Fort save, so you can multiclass to qualify really quickly.

Here, friends, is an example of the pain:

Dwarf starting Con 18 + 2 racial = 20

Lvl  Class  Fort  Feats           Con   HD +Con+Fts=   HP  w/Magic
==================================================================
1    Brb    +2    Toughness       -     12  5     3    20
2    Drd    +4    -               -    16.  10    3    29
3    Rgr    +6    Dw's Tghness    -     22  15    9    46
4    Clr    +8    -               21   26.  20    9    55
5    Ftr   +10    Gi's Tghness    -     32  25   18    75
6    Ftr   +11    Dr's Tgh x2     -    37.  30   42   109     
7    Ftr   +11    -               -     43  35   42   120      127
8    Ftr   +12    Dr's Tgh        22   48.  48   54   150      158
9    Ftr   +12    Dr's Tgh        -     54  54   66   174      183
10   Ftr   +13    Dr's Tgh        -    59.  60   78   197      207
11   Ftr   +13    -               -     65  66   78   209      231
12   Ftr   +14    Dr's Tgh x2     23   70.  72  102   244      268
13   Ftr   +14    -               -     76  78  102   256      282
14   Ftr   +15    Dr's Tgh        -    81.  84  114   279      321
15   Ftr   +15    Dr's Tgh        -     87  90  126   293      338
16   Ftr   +16    Dr's Tgh        24   92. 112  138   332      380
17   Ftr   +16    -               -     98 119  138   345      396
18   Ftr   +17    Dr's Tgh x2     -   103. 126  162   381      435
19   Ftr   +17    -               -    109 133  162   394      451
20   Ftr   +18    Dr's Tgh        25  104. 140  174   418      478

Amulet of Health +2:  4000 -- 7th level
Amulet of Health +4: 16000 -- 11th level
Amulet of Health +6: 32000 -- 14th level

(Let's pray that table comes out alright, heh)

As you can see, this friendly fellow without any PrC's or any multiclassing penalties is topping the 100 mark at sixth level, without magic items (I limited myself to one-fourth of total gear cost per Amulet of Health: A lot, but considering it's a character clearly focused on hit points, it seemed pretty reasonable.)

Also, remember that level of Cleric and that level of Druid: Extends the max hit points out just a little bit more per day. (Also, remember he gains to hit points per level each time he Rages -- meaning he passes 500 at level 20, w/ magic items of course).

So, the question is -- is this a balanced tradeoff? Does the loss of all the feats justify having many times over the number of hit points of other group members? Are there appropriate encounters for a party with this character in it (assume no one else is munching)?

If not, well, it may just be nerfing time... I'm not sure on my own, however -- that's a lot of feats to sacrifice, and while he gets a little candy out of the multi-classing (Track, Ambi/TWF, 1st-level spells twice-over, fast movement, and rage) he'll still be nowhere near as versatile a warrior as others of his level. But so long as he's packing the best greataxe (or a pair of shortswords) he can afford with the rest of his money, he'll probably be dealing decent damage... He'll probably want to invest a fair share in armor as well, although it's clear he can afford to take a hit (even for massive damage -- his fort saves are mean as you'd imagine)

If I can think of a disadvantage, it's just trying to heal this monster, especially at earlier levels... The rest of the party will need healing, so in practice you'd probably rarely be at full hit points (although half hit points with this character is no great danger.)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Harm.

-Hyp.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

So, the question is -- is this a balanced tradeoff? Does the loss of all the feats justify having many times over the number of hit points of other group members? Are there appropriate encounters for a party with this character in it (assume no one else is munching)?

It is a large amount of hit points, but I don't think it is a big deal. The char could take some serious hits, but with so many feats used in hit points- they won't be able to return the damage or combat capabilities that other enemies will have as an option.

Besides- it seems a lot of high level combat comes down to saving throws.

Are there appropriate encounters? Sure.

Any reoccurring villian is going to learn very quickly that throwing thugs at the this pc won't work- so they will go for magic, poison, traps, and battlefields that will take him down (forest fires, volcanoes, etc).

The real question- is a player of yours considering doing this? Or are you?

If it is the latter, then you can always put in a rule I have about multiclassing- you need to find a trainer to take a new class. That slows down the class jumping dramatically.

If it is the former, then have fun. heh. I think the char would be boring to play- myself.

On the other hand, if this is just a possibility you see- then don't worry about it until you have to deal with it. Out of all the exploits in d&d, this is hardly one I would lose sleep over a player seeking to use for their character.

Good luck.
SD

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Hey what would anyone think of this character, I mean it is for sure min/maxing but anyone who sees this chracters asks himself what the hell is this, has this character the right to exist, I think such an chracter can't be based on any reliable background. Only if your DM would tell you that you can start with lets say LVL 8 you could write a background that would foit such a character. Is there anything of roleplay left in such a character, I don't think so. If you like such abstract characters make them play them and have fun. Iwouldn't even stop you fron doing so if i was your DM, my players can nearly do whatever they want but me too!!!

 

[Dr_Rictus]

I actually don't see the role-playing issue. With a nature-oriented patron deity or philosophy, the Drd/Clr/Rgr/Brb isn't that strange a combination.

Balance-wise, well, he's a one-trick pony, isn't he? If you play to his strength (let him play the tactical role of anvil and just bash on him), naturally he'll do great. But he's got plenty of weaknesses.

By the way, as long as you're going whole hog, you might as well add to your chart the number of hit points he'll have while raging.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Balance-wise, well, he's a one-trick pony, isn't he? If you play to his strength (let him play the tactical role of anvil and just bash on him), naturally he'll do great. But he's got plenty of weaknesses.

Tough Guy: I have 518 hit points! I am invincible!
DM: What's your touch AC again?

-Hyp.

 

[Guilt Puppy]

Re: Re: Dwarf's Toughness

Harm.

Heal.

Originally posted by Sagan Darkside
The real question- is a player of yours considering doing this? Or are you?

Neither, thankfully. Just a curiosity that has been nagging me since I saw those feats (wondering if they were really as munchable as they seemed), and finally decided to carry out to its logical conclusion...

Also haven't seen any characters min-maxed for hit points so far (as opposed to AC, attack, multi-attacks, and damage potential, which we've seen plenty)

Regarding exploiting his saving throws: His Fort save is also just about invincible. +15 at fifth level, +28 at 20th. Reflex is almost always to avoid damage, and taking damage is definitely not his weakness. Will is his only weak spot, but because of the Druid/Clr levels his Will save is actually higher than a fighter of equivalent levels.

And remember, Dwarves get +2 versus spells.

So basically, he's vulnerable to spells with no save. As is any character without SR. His touch AC won't be any worse than any other fighter (just assume he's swapping out Str for Con, all else the same.)

Alternately, you could exchange Barbarian and Druid for Monk and Paladin getting rid of the Rage but adding Wis to AC, divine grace, et cetera. Monks can pull decent ACs -- versus touch -- even if Wis and Dex aren't the highest stats... But this starts assuming other stats, and I don't want to do a full point-buy/item-buy... However, clearly it's possible to avoid those weaknesses.

Honestly, I can't think of a reasonable way to threaten this character without going waaay above CR (except for Harm and death effects, which with the Monk variation are even harder to pull off...) And he's still capable of being an adequate combatant, using base attack alone.

While I'm not totally convinced that this proves anything about the Toughness feats, I definitely find it curious. If anyone wants to work out a more fully-refined version of this that covers for more weaknesses, be my guest

 

[Crothian]

Well, it would be Harm followed by something else, that will kill anything. But a high HP character is not that big of deal. And I think most people think these toughness feats are still a waste and never take them. So, until people start taking them above anything else they don't even approach munchy.

 

[Apok]

I've got two words for your pumped up HP monster;

Energy Drain.

 

[Guilt Puppy]

I've got two words for your pumped up HP monster;

Energy Drain.

"Fortitude negates"?

Bring it on. He can be sick for a day

(Even at ninth level -- the level he'd be set back to by a seventeenth level caster, assuming the spell rolled max, and he was facing someone of equal level -- his Fort save is still +19, +21 versus spells... oh, except he'd have +6 enhancement to Con, not +2, from his magic item Not sure how closely this mirrors the way negative levels work, but it's pretty certain that they wouldn't become permanent.)

Re: Harm, the Monk variation helps against this, esp. if he focuses on deflection bonuses... And he's no more prone to this than virtually any other character would be, so I'd hardly call it a "weakness"... At least not of this munch specifically

Re: Character background, this is of course a purely meta-game rule-stretch, but yeah, I couldn't help but take that into account when making the character... Of the high-Fort classes, those five seemed to fit together the most naturally, so I went that route. (With the added bonus of being able to take Barbarian at first level, heh.)

I could actually see playing a character like this, now that I think about it, although I'd sure as hell give my DM fair warning... He has a nice pick of class abilities (spells, Rage, Track) which don't make up for his singularity of focus, but are at least kind of interesting. And while it's power-gamish, it's hard to really use Hit Points to totally dominate an encounter... It'd just be a character that can fly into combat and take hits with reckless abandon.