Dwarv & Heavy Armor & Movement

[Wardo]

This sentence explicitly says that a Dwarf's speed is not reduced due to heavy armor.

Yeah, I noticed that after I made my earlier post - I was ignoring the wording in parentheses when I agreed with Arbiter - focusing instead on the "... is 20 feet ... can move at this speed."

The parenthetical text makes a pretty strong case for dwarfbarians running around in breastplates at 30ft.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

This sentence explicitly says that a Dwarf's speed is not reduced due to heavy armor. If it's not reduced, than a Dwarf barbarian in medium armor is moving at 30'. To say that his movement is only 20' is to say that his speed is reduced by the armor he's wearing, which is obviously not the case.

The sentence in question does not say that the dwarf's speed is not reduced due to heavy armor. What it says is that a dwarf can still move at 20' regardless of armor. For most dwarves, that means, in practice, that dwarves' speed is not reduced by armor, but for dwarven barbarians, 20+10-10 is still 20, even if you set the minimum at 20.

If the designers' intent is that dwarven barbarians should move faster than human tanks, they have not been sufficiently explicit about it.

 

[werk]

'ooo, ooo, I think I found a loop-hole so my barbarian can wear heavy armor!'
'no.'

Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).

-That basically says that they can't go below 20' due to armor or heavy loads.

Fast move: This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load.

-Benefit does not apply since he is wearing heavy armor.

Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

-The last sentance in fast movement is talking about adjusting the speed down for medium loads or armor (where the restriction applies, but so does the benefit). Answer to the original post (IMHO) is no.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

'ooo, ooo, I think I found a loop-hole so my barbarian can wear heavy armor!'
'no.'

But haven't we?
If armored dwarves are stuck at neither faster nor slower 20', regardless of armor, why wear medium armor? Take a feat, or a level in fighter, and throw on the full-plate. It reinforces the tin-can-dwarf stereotype, offers better AC, and doesn't affect speed.

 

[magic_gathering2001]

DWARVES
Base (racial) = 20
+ Barbarian bonus (+10)
= 30

New Speed (30)
-penalty for breastplate (20 minimum for Dwarves, even in medium or heavy armor or with a medium or heavy load)
=30

HUMANS
Base (racial) = 30
+ Barbarian bonus (+10)
= 40

New Speed (40)
-penalty for breastplate (30 for characters with speed 40)
= 30

Very selective quoting in the previous sentance it says this bonus applies only in light or medium armor
sorry i didnt see breastplate

 

[Wardo]

If the designers' intent is that dwarven barbarians should move faster than human tanks, they have not been sufficiently explicit about it.

That is one thing I know for sure I can agree on.

The problem lies in the SRD quote's use of the pronoun "this speed." The pronoun follows a separate sentence which states "Dwarven base land speed is 20 feet." That sentence is two noun phrases "Dwarven base land speed" and "20 feet" joined by "is", making them equivalent. So, humans resolving the "this speed" pronoun don't even worry about whether it refers to "20 ft" or "dwarven base land speed," because it doesn't matter.

However, in the case of dwarven barbarians, the base speed is no longer 20 ft, it becomes 30, thus the first sentence is invalidated. That leaves the reader to try to determine what the designer meant when they said "this speed." Both noun phrases are speeds, so there's no easy answer there. So, the reader falls back on their biases and intuitions - that's why one reading seems obvious to some, while a different reading seems obvious to others.

"20 feet"s proximity to the pronoun supports the "dwarves move at least 20 feet in medium armor" argument.

The parentheses support the "dwarves move their base speed in medium armor" argument.

Either way, we have no way of knowing, so I would say go with what suits your game best. Note, none of this has anything to do with the case where they're wearing heavy armor, where I think we all agree that the Barbarian speed bonus just goes away, and the speed is 20ft.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

But the Barbarian's "Fast Movement" abililty doesn't increase base speed; it increases land speed.

 

[Wardo]

But the Barbarian's "Fast Movement" abililty doesn't increase base speed; it increases land speed.

Gah! Too many keywords - I enjoy the mental gymnastics this involves, but I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth the extra 10 feet

It is an unnamed bonus that increases land speed, and it applies that increase before you adjust for armor. So it's almost like base speed. But no, it's not base land speed, just land speed. I don't know if that completely destroys my argument or not, but I concede, I am out of ammunition.

Actually, after more consideration: yes, it does completely destroy my argument. I am now back in the Arbiter camp.

 

[werk]

But haven't we?
If armored dwarves are stuck at neither faster nor slower 20', regardless of armor, why wear medium armor? Take a feat, or a level in fighter, and throw on the full-plate. It reinforces the tin-can-dwarf stereotype, offers better AC, and doesn't affect speed.

You could always do that, nothing new there. You can put a level of fighter (or armor proficiencies) on anything and put them in a pot-belly stove. Main point I was making is that, in heavy armor, the barb doesn't get fast movement.

Odd that the only thing limited by load is fast movement, not uncanny dodge or any of the other 'mobility' related abilities.