Dwarven Fighter Discussion

[Dooks Dizzo]

I'd like to pick some number crunching brains out there and see if my Dwarven Fighter build is really as awesome as I seem to think it is.

My first character was a Human Warlord (Inspiring) and it was a lot of fun, but I really want to try out being a main line fighter. The whole idea though is to be as useful to the party as possible. I am totally willing to work within my character idea to provide the most benefit to the party.

I am not totally sold on being a Dwarf and other than Halfling, there is no race I wouldn't play.

So, on to the numbers. (using the premade stats out of the book, 16,14,13,12,11,10.)

Str: 16
Con:16 (14+2)
Dex:10
Int:12
Wis:15 (13+2)
Cha:11

31HP

Feat:
Dwarven Weappon Training

Attack:
Greataxe + 7 to hit

Damage:
1D12 + 5 (6-17)

Or

Attack:
Maul + 6 to hit

Damage:
2D6 + 5 (8-17)

Is there a better way to go? Is there a better race outright for Fighter? I was thinking Human with an 18 strength might be good and toughness and a Bastard Sword for the second feat.

 

[BlackMoria]

Dragonborn is a good choice. The strength mod boost plays into the main attribute of the fighter and you have the breath weapon for quick removal of minion swarms. Of course, YMMV depending on what your character concept is, which looks to me to be a heavy weapon tank fighter.

 

[ac_noj]

Human's and Dragonborn make better high damage fighters, the dwarf is the king of tanking (with Dragonborn being second in that role).
What's your objective with this character long term?

 

[amysrevenge]

You might find that a shield makes you more useful to your party. Battleaxe and warhammer are pretty good dwarf shield-fighter options. Depends on if there is another defender in the party or not probably.

 

[Kaelkatar]

If you are trying to max/min the best route is not the standard array. Dwarves are an awesome fighter race. The resistance to push/pulls/prones is very important, as is a minor action second wind.

The array that I would consider is the 18,13,13,10,10,8.
The 18 is your STR, and the 13s are CON and WIS. The 8 is set to CHA or INT depending largely on what skills you want to be a tad better.

Dwarfing bonuses raise those numbers to 18, 15, 15, 10, 10, 8.
Your Level 4 stats will go STR, CON.
Your level 8 stats will go STR, WIS

This will create a L8 array of 20, 16, 16, 10, 10, 8
The final L30 array that I find best gives you 26, 20, 20, 12, 12, 10. This leaves you with rather low non-fort saves, but allows insane control over melee enemies, a high AC, and damage that your ranger can even apperciate.

The high wisdom is important, as it makes the pit-fighter PP awesome, adding 4 damage to every attack at level 16, and 5 to every attack past 21. If you wish to go a non-pit fighter class, bump the wis to 16 and then focus on CON all the way to 30. This will offer less damage, and lower will saves, but possibly more hitpoints.

Greataxe or Maul/Heavyflail are both great ideas, and the biggest part of choosing is the feats and power that utilize it. Hammer rhythm is perhaps the most powerful feat that requires a specific weapon class, and the powers that add bonuses for hammers, in my opinion, outshine axe or flail bonuses. Still, your choice. The alternative is 1h weapon and shield, though the hit you take to reaping strike and power attack, as well as the base damage makes up for the +2 to AC bonus.

As for starting feats, I would go with Plate if you can get some plate, else toughness for defense or dwarven weapon focus for offence.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Human's and Dragonborn make better high damage fighters, the dwarf is the king of tanking (with Dragonborn being second in that role).
What's your objective with this character long term?

The dwarf is absolutely equal at being a high damage fighter, so long as you take DWT and you use an axe or a hammer. You'll be down +1 to hit vs. a dragonborn or human as a worst-case scenario. Your dwarf abilities more than make up for this. Second Wind as a minor action is godlike. That means you get an extra attack each encounter over a dragonborn or human who uses Second Wind. Very, very good.

I second the 18/13/13/10/10/8 array for this build. With 18 str, 15 con, 15 wis, you're looking at a beefy contender with great OA potential.

I'd even use those numbers with a shield build.

Everyone on this board will coerce you to use a shield when you ask for fighter help. Shields make you more resilient; two-handers let you kill faster. I honestly don't think either choice makes a huge impact on "tanking" ability. Play what you want, you're still going to be a great meatshield if you're a dwarf.

 

[Dooks Dizzo]

Great feedback, thanks to everyone and especially Kael for that break down.

The thing that really sells me on Dwarves is the +2 damage feat for hammers and axes. I am only a medium number cruncher, so a lot of things slip past me. I never thought Hammer Rhythm was that big of a deal. Can you explain why it is so good?

I really want to dish out a good amount of damage. An 18 Str from human or Dragonborn loses out to a Dwarf with 16 and weapon training right?

I like the stat builds you put forward, definitely powerful and no extra dross.

I had considered Shield/Bastardsword kind of build. I really like Tide of Iron for example.

Edit: Grumpy you ninja'd in on me. Good points.

Just out of curiosity, what is the highest damage build you can make? Conversly, the highest pure resiliance build?

 

[ac_noj]

The dwarf is absolutely equal at being a high damage fighter, so long as you take DWT and you use an axe or a hammer. You'll be down +1 to hit vs. a dragonborn or human as a worst-case scenario.

DWT doesn't stack with Weapon Focus, so while It's nice from levels 1 to 10 it becomes redundant for a Fighter after that.

Hammer Rhythm is great because half your attacks are going to miss, so half the time you'll be doing damage with your high Con mod instead of none. That combo's well with the Iron Vanguard paragon path but that's really a tank build.

To answer your last question, there are only three builds I think are really good (note that the races are actually very flexable, I'm just putting the optimal ones):
1) Dwarvern Fighter/Swordmaster AoE Tank. Holds the attention of lots of monsters while being really hard to kill.
2) Dwarvern Fighter/Pit Fighter Polearm Gambler. A high damage build that turns you into a mobile hazard.
3) Dwarvern Fighter/Warpriest Single Target Tank. Holds the attention of one thing at a time really really well.

You can make a tougher tank with Iron Vanguard but you wont be as sticky, and if it's direct damage you're looking for you'll always do better as a Ranger.

 

[the8bitdeity]

I'm a big fan of Warforged fighters -> Juggernaut.

 

[Dooks Dizzo]

I guess I am looking to maximize damage while maintaining the true defender role. Lots of hit points, good ac and a threat to anyone looking to beat on the squishy wizards and such.

I was thinking of crossing with Wizard to get Scorching burst and mark multiple targets at the begining of an encounter, but Fighters need so many feats, it's hard to decide what to give up.

In a lot of ways though, it doesn't really seem like you can go wrong with a fighter. As long as you don't do something really dumb, you're going to be a great tank.

If only Dragonborn got something other than Cha for their stat increase...

As to Warforged, are they just in the MM?

I don't think we'll be going outside the PLayers Handbook for some time yet.