Dying and Raise Dead...

[moticon]

I've seen some pretty good threads debating how often PC's will die and Jason Buhlmahn indicates in his writeup that he believes it will be rare... I'd be interested in two reactions from everyone..

1. Do you think PC's will be at a lower risk of death, based on what you've seen?
2. What have you heard, read, surmised about raise dead (or similar ritual/spell)? What will the impact be? Does it exist?

Thanks all

 

[Bagpuss]

1. Yes.
2. Much hard to come by probably an Epic Ritual. (Educated guess)

 

[Benimoto]

I think looking simply at the new Death and Dying rules on paper is a little misleading. It seems like the goal in 4th edition is to have a minimal risk of PC death, if the PCs are in control of the situation. That is, no "oops, you rolled a 1 vs. Slay Living" and less "oops, the 12th level barbarian just critted you for 123 damage". That said, I saw plenty of death in my experiences with the preview adventures, and talking with my friends there, plenty of them saw PC deaths as well.

Raise Dead, etc., I think will still be a part of the game. I expect to see a situation not terribly different from what we have in 4th edition, where spells like Raise Dead are available to characters somewhere near the high heroic levels, spells like Resurrection kick in at paragon, and epic level characters have truely fantastic options like clones and True Resurrection. I hope that those options will be needed slightly less, but I think they'll still be there.

 

[Ximenes088]

My impression of what's been stated is that in the heroic tier, death generally means rolling up a new PC. Paragon PCs can get raised through major effort, and epic-tier sorts will view it as a speedbump. I suspect one reason death is so much less prevalent at low levels is because at heroic levels, you simply aren't going to get raised.

 

[Spinachcat]

So much depends on the DM. I play OD&D where you save vs. death at 0 HP and if you fail, you die and if you succeed, you are unconscious. Raise deads aren't cheap so PC death is pretty final in my games.

In 4e, death at -Bloodied / 3 failed saves means that it will happen less if the party can win the fight and be close to the body to heal them. However, fights in 4e could get pretty brutal with a DM who knows skirmish tactics and presses hard against the players (even with the "fair" CRs). They may find themselves forced more often to retreat and thus leave the dying to their graves.

I also suspect that Raise Dead is an Epic Ritual. The game impact will be that few Heroic tier characters will be raised. That will be a Paragon and Epic event instead.

In no way do I think 4e is going to be Cakewalk: the Wimping. Mike Mearls is the guy behind Iron Heroes and he's obviously a fan of brutal battles with a real possibility of character loss.

 

[Dragonblade]

I believe the designer's said that raising is nigh impossible for heroic, and very difficult for paragon, but death is a speed bump for epic PCs. Thats about how it should be, IMO.

 

[Saitou]

I believe the designer's said that raising is nigh impossible for heroic, and very difficult for paragon, but death is a speed bump for epic PCs. Thats about how it should be, IMO.

Massawyrm's three-part write up of 4E referred not once but twice to Epic-tier effects that started with "once per day, when you die..."

I like the sound of it.

Resurrection will probably be somewhere in the middle of the Paragon-tier rituals, quite possibly involving some sweet-talking the Raven Queen. I like to tie raising deadbeat PCs into quests in their own right.

 

[Quartz]

My impression of what's been stated is that in the heroic tier, death generally means rolling up a new PC. Paragon PCs can get raised through major effort, and epic-tier sorts will view it as a speedbump.

I hope it's somewhat different: Heroic PCs should be raisable with great effort, Paragon PCs with significant effort - more likely time than anything else - and merely a temporary condition for Epic PCs.

IMHO Epic PCs should have the opportunity to bring themselves back from the dead without the help of their companions. Fighting or tricking yourself or whatever out of the Land of the Dead is something that is properly Epic. That's not to say that companions can't help.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I think PCs will be at a much lower risk of death through the Heroic levels. Unless your DM throws up an overwhelming encounter (4th level dragon at 1st level party) or unless your party seriously screws up its tactics or unless you get a freakishly bad strong of rolls, nobody's PC is going to die. This is backed up by reports from D&D Experience.

I think in the paragon tier, things will be tougher and the risk of death bigger. There will be more things to do with actions and more mobility, and it will be more tempting to risk not using your second wind or more common to be too far away for help to reach.

I think Epic tier will be extraordinarily deadly. Probably nothing that can kill a PC in one hit, but two hits? Absolutely. I listened to a podcast last night where it was noted that one epic destiny is to become one of a god's primary servants (sort of a demigod). Not as a capstone at 30th level, mind you, but at 21st. The stakes will be big and life and death will blur together.

This way of doing it makes a lot more sense than 3E's way of doing it. In 3E, it was easy to die at low levels, hard to die at mid-levels, and then easy to die again at high levels. This is a much smoother progression.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

actually, remember where the sweet spot of 3.5 lies.

Is Level about 2-7, those levels where one hit kills are near impossible. If you want lethal combat play a different system... (I play D&D because characters should only be killed if they do unclever actions and are unlucky)

3.x does not that well in that regard. Also now you can actually attack unconscious PCs to make clear that someone should take risks to help them. (If you do this in 3.x players will soon be very unhappy) It is even more difficult if some player drops in the middle of my fireball area... doing another one is a certain kill...

regarding numbers of options: i rather want to see my BBEG going down by a magic missile than rolling on the floor loughing his ass out while beeing shot by the ranger and get his killing blow from the wizard desperately throwing his lamp, because he was out of spells :/ wrong thread

also regarding SOD: I lost my cleric to a bodaks gaze when i could fail only on a 2 (and i refused to shut my eyes because of OOC knowledge)