E6: The Game Inside D&D (with PDFs!)

[knight_isa]

On a somewhat related note, I'm wondering if these feats are really balanced for E6:

Expanded Knowledge (General) (PoeticJustice)
Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell known at any level you can cast from that class's spell list.

Expanded Casting (General) (PoeticJustice)
Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell slot at any level you can already cast.

While stonger than the equivalent WotC feats, they're probably still okay for a normal d20 campaign. In fact, they're probably a little weak unless you wait until 18th level or so to take them, since that bonus spell slot/known will become less and less valuable as the caster advances. In E6, though, they're giving the caster more of his most powerful ability (which will never be superceded by a more powerful ability), and I'm starting to think that it may be too much. Am I overthinking this? Am I missing some other feat(s) for non-casters that will give them similar benefits?

 

[Ry]

I was under the impression that E6 was purposely lopsided, the idea behind it being that ~6th level was the "sweet spot" for rycanada and his group (and obviously others as well). The earlier levels are just there to provide backstory for the "epic" 6th level characters, and the later feats are to give the players the satisfaction of seeing the characters advance.

Precisely.

 

[GameDoc]

Paladin and Ranger Spells

Something else that occurred to me was that E6 could make paladin and ranger spells a hollow proposition.

Barring bonus spells for high Wisdom, you get one 1st level spell at 6th level - the point in time when primary spellcasters have already gotten into 3rd level spells - the most powerful kind available.

Even with a high wisdom, you get your one bonus spell at 4th level, when the major casters have 3 or more first level, plus some second level spells.

I wonder if E6 would be a good system to use the alternative from Complete Warrior that drops spells for these two classes in exchange for a class feature at 6th level (fast movement for rangers; blessed weapon for paladins).

 

[ajanders]

Well, remember E6ic (that's "Epic" in E6) characters can take feats to allow them more spells, more spells/day, and possibly even higher level spells -- it depends on how much leaning up you want to do.
But in terms of creating strong class archetypes, it seems like a good idea. PHB II has a similar class ability system that kicks in at sixth level for the fighter: that may be more special than giving them another feat.

 

[GameDoc]

For the "higher-lvl spells as incantations" idea, I'd go with the existing system for spell research (DMG, page 198), or a variant thereof, to learn the blasted things.

I hadn't though of that. Its an interesting suggestion.

I guess it would depend on the feel you were going for in your setting. If 4th level and higher magic was all but unheard of, it would make sense to require research.

OTOH, if you wanted high level magic to be well-known to exist (at least by wizards, clerics, and the like), but simply not easy to come by, something closer to the incantation rituals might suffice.

I do agree that you should probably rule that only primary spellcasters can do incantations (as opposed to anyone) if you are going to use them in this manner.

 

[GameDoc]

Well, remember E6ic (that's "Epic" in E6) characters can take feats to allow them more spells, more spells/day, and possibly even higher level spells -- it depends on how much leaning up you want to do.
But in terms of creating strong class archetypes, it seems like a good idea. PHB II has a similar class ability system that kicks in at sixth level for the fighter: that may be more special than giving them another feat.

Hey, I had forgotten about that option in the PHB II. Good call! Of course, we are bringing in splat books in both instances and part of what Ryan was going for was something that could be 100% OGL. I guess E6, like regular D&D, is something you could use supplements to flavor, or just go straight SRD.

As far as Paladins and Rangers using feats to advance their spells, it seems like that would only compound the diminishing returns, as their combat abilities would suffer.

 

[Dragonblade275]

Another Way to Handle Higher Level Spells in E6

I've been reviewing various alternate rules for use in my current DnD 3.5 campaign. Tonight, I was looking over Monte Cook & John Tynes' d20 Call of Cthulhu Roleplaying Game.

The spells in that system don't even require the caster to have spell casting ability in the way that a cleric, druid, sorcerer, or wizard would have. Almost anyone can cast a spell for a price (usually either temporary or permanent ability score damage and/or loss of sanity).

Perhaps, E6 could build along similar ideas for casting of higher level spells than normal?

For instance, suppose that a wizard wanted to cast a fourth level spell. Rather than spending a spell slot, the caster makes a Spellcraft check equal to 20 plus the spell level being attempted. If the check is successful, the spell is cast normally. If the check is unsuccessful, the caster must make a Will Save (DC 20 plus spell level) or suffer temporary ability score damage of 1d4 plus the spell level. The GM determines which ability score is temporarily damaged as appropriate for the spell (or randomly, if undecided). Also, if the Will Save roll results in a natural 1 on the die, the ability score damage would be permanent, rather than temporary.

If using this variant, I might recommend that spells of not normally available to the character would have to be researched on a per spell basis (or discovered in spellbooks, scolls, or ancient tomes). Also, certain spells might have special components to make the Spellcraft check easier. Or, there could be certain days of the year, phases of the moon, special locations, rituals (including extra casters), etc... that affected the Spellcraft check.

Just some ideas that might be interesting to try in E6...

 

[Ry]

For the next little while I'm going to be focusing my efforts on my weekly E6 and the Ebrys campaign setting, rather than making an E6 book of feats.

 

[Ry]

I think one thing that has been overlooked as a viable approach for E6 play (and it's my approach). Pick what sources of feats you intend to allow, and ask your players to look for feats they want. Add feats only when there aren't feats they want.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I think one thing that has been overlooked as a viable approach for E6 play (and it's my approach). Pick what sources of feats you intend to allow, and ask your players to look for feats they want. Add feats only when there aren't feats they want.

I think this is very wise. Don't waste time designing something that the players don't want to use.

I was under the impression that E6 was purposely lopsided, the idea behind it being that ~6th level was the "sweet spot" for rycanada and his group (and obviously others as well). The earlier levels are just there to provide backstory for the "epic" 6th level characters, and the later feats are to give the players the satisfaction of seeing the characters advance.

In the main threads about this, such as the discussion of Ryan Dancey's quartile post on rpg.net, or even Wulf Ratbane's Sweet Spot thread, the "Sweet Spot" has always been a range of levels, not a particular level. 5-8 is the range that kept coming up in Wulf's thread, largely because of the game changing spells available to 9th level casters (raise dead and teleport, particularly). Still, 9th level is appropriate for the end of a heroic fantasy campaign. Maybe even 10th level.

My concern is two-fold. First, feats might be not enough of a boost to players who are used to advancing levels at regular intervals; second, the lure of higher level abilities might be irresistible, leading to the proliferation of unbalanced "lean upwards" feats. These two concerns are related, of course. I think it would be better to intersperse bonus feats with level advancement- and maybe never stop level advancement entirely.

Problems like wizards getting spells a level early compared to sorcerers could be handled on a case by case basis. For instance:

Advanced Spellcasting
You access higher level spells sooner.
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class. When your spellcaster level in that class is an odd number, calculate your spells per day and spells known as if your spellcaster level in that class were one higher. Advanced Spellcasting affects only your highest level of spells known. It does not affect your caster level.

This allows a sorcerer to cast 2nd level spells at level 3, 3rd level spells at level 5, 4th level spells at level 7, etc., ensuring parity with the wizard (albeit at the cost of a feat). I think this preserves the design decision that says the sorcerer should be a little behind the wizard, but would be better suited for an E7 game; or an E6 game where a sorcerer multiclasses.