E6: The Game Inside D&D (with PDFs!)

[Dragonblade275]

Old gamer, since 75 with the D&D boxed set, and long time lurker. I got back into the 3rd and 3.5 ed and played a couple of times but was disillusioned with the increased, game-slowing complexity of upper level play and the pain involved with being a DM. I have been casting around looking for a fix, True20, C&C, etc. but found E6 to be the best alternative for running the games that I prefer. Thanks for contributing this approach.

The only question that I have involves multiclasses: If 6th level is the suggested max level, couldn't characters continue to top out additonal classes to 6th level? It would seem logical, from a setting viewpoint, that longer lived races could be truly diversified with multiple 6th level classes. I accept that the cap may have been placed at a total of 6 levels but capping it in that way seems problematic to the player who asserts that his 5th level fighter, 1st level wizard still has more room for growth when compared to the 6th level wizard in the party.

I have considered that the 'Laws of reality' may limit just what a pc can achieve and that using gestalt classes with 2 level steps (a la 6 fighter, 4 level wizard, 2 level rogue) may work for any group that I may play with. I was just wondering what Enworlders may think of this. If it has been convered in another thread, sorry for the repitition.

I'd considered that, OldLurker.

What I'd do is allow them to gestalt. In other words, a fighter5/wizard1 could become a fighter5/wizard2, but he would only improve in those abilities for which a wizard2 was better than what he already had.

fighter5/wizard1

HD (5d10, 1d4) BAB+5 FORT +4 REF +1 WILL +2
fighter feats and 1st level wizard spell slots​

fighter5/wizard2

HD (5d10, 1d4) BAB+5 FORT +4 REF +1 WILL +3
fighter feats and 2nd level wizard spell slots​

Only the Will Save and the Spell slots would improve because everything else is already better than what a Wizard2 would have.

That's my take... Others might do it in other ways. But, it works for me for the elder races (elves & dwarves, etc...). A legendary elf might be a fighter6/wizard6 with the following stats:

Elven Fighter6/Wizard6

HD (6d10, 0d4) BAB+6 FORT +5 REF +2 WILL +5
fighter feats and 6th level wizard spell slots​

Notice, no d4's gained for hit dice because the d10's from fighter are better than d4's.

Again, this is all how I would do it. Others might do it differently.

I might even allow that elf to become a fighter6/rogue6/wizard6 with the following:

Elven Fighter6/Rogue6/Wizard6

HD (6d10, 0d6, 0d4) BAB+6 FORT +5 REF +5 WILL +5
fighter feats, 6th level rogue abilities, and 6th level wizard spell slots​

Notice, no d6's gained for hit dice because the d10's from fighter are better than d6's. Also, only the Reflex save improves because fighter6/Wizard6 is already maxed out in Fort and Will saves.

 

[Ry]

Dragonblade is correct; E6 stands for Epic 6th. In the .pdf and the first post, I talk about how 6th level characters are mortal, but they can also be epic heroes if you approach the game with the right mindset.

 

[skelso]

Hi, I've been reading the En World E6 discussions for a few days (actually joined so that I could see everything) and I have to say, I'm really impressed. Thanks for developing this, rycanada, and everyone else who's been helping to develop it. It's probably the most exciting D&D development to me since 3rd edition came out.

While I'm writing, I'd like to make a pitch in defense of my favorite core class, the Fighter. It seems like the consensus is that the Fighter lacks balance and "single class" appeal. That no one would ever take it in E6 without multi-classing at least a little. I know that the perception that a class is weak is just about as powerful as actual class weakness, so I just wanted to point out some numbers to strengthen my case. I'm writing this from a Powergamer perspective, but that's really what we're talking about. If we're making our class choices based on character personality, it hardly matters at all if the classes are balanced.

The Fighter's detractors point out how few unique special abilities that the Fighter has that other classes don't. Sure the Fighter has the option of taking Weapon Specialization, but nothing beyond level 4 to recommend it. Everyone is forgetting the Fighter's true special ability that really makes them shine in a party. In the case of E6, I call it the "Four Feat Advantage." Specifically, whatever feat chain your character might be working on, the Fighter is going to complete that chain 4 feats (20,000 xp) sooner. I realize that with the exception of Weapon Specialization, whatever feats the Fighter pursues can eventually be obtained by everyone, but by that time, the Fighter has moved on and begun and possibly finished another Feat Chain, growing his power substantially.

Take the Rage ability and compare it Weapon Specialization:
+2 to attack, +2 damage and +2 Will, -2 to AC, limited uses, short duration, tired afterwards
vs.
+1 to attack, +2 damage, no limit, no duration, no fatigue

Sometimes Rage is better, but Weapon Specialization is your general best option. I think the same goes in comparison to the Ranger's Favored Enemy or the Paladin's limited use Smite.

Of course, most people agree that Fighter 4 has it's advantages, but why carry it to 6? Personally, I don't usually take Weapon Specialization in the first six levels. I'd rather finish my Whirlwind Attack chain or an Archery chain or even Greater Cleave. Finishing up a Feat Chain sooner rather than picking up a Rage or a Smite or a Favored Enemy is always the more powerful move. The sooner you finish the chain, the more use you get from it. That makes the one extra bonus feat at 6th well worth it, in my opinion.

I haven't really compared taking Fighter 6 to the option of picking up a couple of non-Full Attack Bonus classes like Rogue, Cleric or Wizard. You're giving up your second attack for either Sneak Attack or a few spells, I think it's pretty balanced, to the point that no one would just automatically do it.

In short, I'm arguing that the Fighter is balanced enough that it doesn't NEED a capstone feat. However, if you're giving everyone one anyway, that's cool.

Anyway, I've become a big fan of all the people discussing this topic. You're not going to offend me if you tear my argument apart, though I think it's pretty solid. Thanks for the good discussion.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Take the Rage ability and compare it Weapon Specialization:
+2 to attack, +2 damage and +2 Will, -2 to AC, limited uses, short duration, tired afterwards
vs.
+1 to attack, +2 damage, no limit, no duration, no fatigue

If the barbarian takes power attack at first level focus on 3rd level, it looks like this:

+1 to attack, +6 damage and +2 Will, -2 to AC, limited uses, short duration, tired afterwards
vs.
+1 to attack, +2 damage, no limit, no duration, no fatigue

Rage is good, because it adds an attack bonus (due to higher strength), that you get back two-fold, due to power attack.

 

[Ry]

Welcome to the boards, skelso!

The fighter is a topic of much debate around here. My longstanding position (for something like 700 posts of E6 discussion over the last 2 threads and a few spinoffs) was that maybe the fighter was a little underpowered, but not so much so that it needed to be specifically addressed. The topic continued for quite some time, and eventually I decided that, given how much energy was being put into that discussion I had better find an approach that would at least address it. Since I was thinking of designing capstone feats for each class, it would be a good idea to post a strong fighter capstone and see if that got the debate about the fighter to simmer down a little. That seems to have worked, which is a good sign that the feat is at least broadly acceptable.

That said, if you want to run an E6 game with none of my feats, or a totally different set of feats, I know that the game holds up. I've had a blast running it, and I'm having a blast running it with my new group.

 

[Ry]

Ryan, I have a question about the Skill Beyond Your Years feat listed back on page 2.

It seems a bit underpowered in comparison to say, Skill Focus. Not to mention that after acquiring it, you need to then get Open Minded in order to have the skill points to fill up the higher limit.

Seems to need some tweaking.

The idea is that you've taken everything under the sun to enhance this skill already. This lets you crack the skill cap off just a little, so it's meant to be a bit weaker than skill focus - just like the higher-end point buys are more expensive than lower-end ones.

 

[Ry]

The character sheet file was requested, but I'm getting a message that it can be found in this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=200754

 

[Shazman]

If the barbarian takes power attack at first level focus on 3rd level, it looks like this:

+1 to attack, +6 damage and +2 Will, -2 to AC, limited uses, short duration, tired afterwards
vs.
+1 to attack, +2 damage, no limit, no duration, no fatigue

Rage is good, because it adds an attack bonus (due to higher strength), that you get back two-fold, due to power attack.

Lord Tirian's arguement has merit if comparing a fighter 6 to a barbarian 6. It breaks down a bit when comparing a fighter 4/barbarian 2 to a fighter 6. The fighter/barbarian is only down one feat and can still get weapon specialization. Plus he's got rage, more hit points, more skills, fast movement, and uncanny dodge. Without the capstone feat, a fighter 6 is left in the dust by the fighter 4/barbarian 2, especially if he takes extra rage.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Anyway, I've become a big fan of all the people discussing this topic. You're not going to offend me if you tear my argument apart, though I think it's pretty solid. Thanks for the good discussion.

Here goes...

Your argument seems solid because you're only looking at initial damage output. Let's look at the basic level 6 abilities each class gets (ignoring capstones, just RAW)

Ignoring Rage/Weapon Spec...:

Barbarian:
+d12 HD
+4 skill points
+extra movement
+Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge
+Trap Sense
-Only light armor

Fighter:
-d10 HD
-2 skill points
+heavy armor and tower shields
+4 feats

In a campaign with a ton of feats, Barbarian has really good abilities you can't get any other way, plus more hit points and skill points. Also, the Fighter's overall weakness is something D&D designers like Mike Mearls have talked about on these boards before, it's not just an E6 crowd thing.

 

[White Whale]

How powerful/weak the fighter is depends how far into "epic" you play. Fighter is generally thought to be quite powerful at low levels. Clearly, as the PCs get more feats, the additional 4 feats the fighter gets is eventually marginalized.