Eadric et. al. (The Paladin and his Friends).

[Salthorae]

@ Sep - Thanks for the quick response! That is a great progression...

From a RP perspective, I can see a diety rewarding a VoP servant for their piety with almost everything on that list to help them defend themselves against the BBEGs, the only one I'm a little confused on is Greater Scrying.

Do you happen to remember the rationale behind choosing that spell/ability? Everything else makes sense to me (especially the ability caps at +8) and looks like a really balanced and workable progression.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

the only one I'm a little confused on is Greater Scrying.

I think my rationale was a vision/insight thing:

see clearly (true seeing) -->

see at a distance (greater scrying) -->

see/presentiment of the future (foresight)


Or at least, that's how I'd rationalize it in hindsight.

 

[Quartz]

Shouldn't the Epic quality be applied to Exalted strike much earlier? I mean, it would suck to be a Monk under your system.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Shouldn't the Epic quality be applied to Exalted strike much earlier? I mean, it would suck to be a Monk under your system.

Dunno. Seems ok to me.

+6 weapon = 720K
Predicted wealth for 27th level character = 2.9M

Vanilla +6 weapons shouldn't be available before 27th level at the very earliest, if you follow the 25% rule.

Plus, the VOP gets all of the special materials (adamantine, cold iron, silver etc.) perks, in one package. I think they get a pretty good deal.


Edit: Isn't there an Improved Ki Strike workaround for monks, anyway?

 

[Quartz]

Dunno. Seems ok to me.

+6 weapon = 720K
Predicted wealth for 27th level character = 2.9M

+6 weapons shouldn't be available before 27th level at the very earliest, if you follow the 25% rule.

I've never seen this applied: characters fighting creatures with DR/Epic, which will happen way before 27th level, will get Epic weapons, often in the very early Epic levels. The very first monster in the ELH, the Anaxim is CR 22 and has DR 30/+6. Other Abominations are similar. There are plenty of monsters in the ELH below CR 27 that have DR XX/+6. (The ELH being a 3.0 product, XX/+6 translates to XX/Epic in 3.5)

Plus, the VOP gets all of the special materials (adamantine, cold iron, silver etc.) perks, in addition.

True, but doesn't it mean that a lower level Monk with a VOP can't bypass the DR of creatures with DR/Epic?

 

[Salthorae]

I would agree on the (epic) Exalted strike that 27th seems reasonable...

Sep, that reasoning on Greater Scrying is interesting and plausible... here's hoping my DM agrees with it

VoP should be some sort of a sacrifice... that's the whole point of the feat tree, to allow for a role playing device for asceticism that doesn't totally underpower the character at higher and higher levels.

Normal VoP and Sep's epic progression both give great benefits w/o making a character completely underpowered, just slightly so, and once you reach the +6 (epic) exalted strike you're not under powered at all.

 

[Quartz]

Edit: Isn't there an Improved Ki Strike workaround for monks, anyway?

Has to be taken 3 times. And you need Wis 21.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Deleted

 

[Avarice]

I've never seen this applied: characters fighting creatures with DR/Epic, which will happen way before 27th level, will get Epic weapons, often in the very early Epic levels. The very first monster in the ELH, the Anaxim is CR 22 and has DR 30/+6. Other Abominations are similar. There are plenty of monsters in the ELH below CR 27 that have DR XX/+6. (The ELH being a 3.0 product, XX/+6 translates to XX/Epic in 3.5)

Well you're both right, aren't you? 27th level is appropriate, from a value standpoint, for a power that mimics a +6 weapon. But a character fighting without that power will be seriously hamstrung much earlier, due to the reasons you provide. It's one of the many fun contradictions the designers of the ELH left us to deal with.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I guess my real point is that DR 20/- just isn't a big deal when characters are dishing out 60 to 100 points per hit and there are so many other questionable subsystems to worry about.

Individual DMs need to determine balance for their individual epic campaigns - i.e. make it up - because circumstances will be different every time. I think that looking for an objective metric of balance is something of a vain quest. But I do think the ELH provides great inspiration for making it up.

An example: when abstracting to detail cosmic entities, I've adhered closely to the notion of character wealth; I've used Cheiromancer's 'level^4*5' formula, which is the one he suggested most closely approximated the ELH progression. The relative importance of 'wealth' (represented by things such as permanent epic spells, or metaphysical abstractions of 'big six' items) becomes more and more important.

There comes a point of where a substantial positive feedback loop between multiple Intelligence buffs, the Spellcraft score and Epic Magic capacity occurs; you get a kind of Spellcraft hyperflation. DvR 20s can use epic magic to invoke ice ages, cause mass extinction events, create demiplanes, or simply annihilate planets because I've chosen to extrapolate the rules in a certain direction.

But I needn't have. The point I'm making is this is the balance I've chosen to adopt; I've set my metric, so to speak.