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Eberron versus Multiverse
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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 7864087" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>[USER=27847]@Beleriphon[/USER] Many of those cities are pronounced very differently despite being spelled the same(Vienna & Cairo I know for a fact). If you asked for directions to them from the next town over & used the european pronounciation you are likely to get a confused "Vee-enna... Where?... do you mean Veye-anna?" As for advice & understanding on how to use them, declaring that they are something else is the opposite of that end; but will like require waiting for either Exploring Eberron, An eventual planar sourcebook from Keith, or some other publication because what little there is about khyber is spread all over...<a href="http://keith-baker.com/tag/khyber/" target="_blank"> Here's</a> a start</p><p>[spoiler="Keith Writing about Khyber"]</p><p><strong><em>Of all the lands across Eberron, the one that I find most mysterious is the vast underground realm of Khyber. I have read about the Underdark of Forgotten Realms and the Darklands of Pathfinder. There is not much detail about the realms. Nothing about its terrain, lifeforms, other denizens etc. Will these be addressed in upcoming future?</em></strong></p><p></p><p>Khyber is a fundamentally different place than the Underdark. Here’s a quote from the Eye on Eberron article “The Inner Sun”:</p><p></p><p><em>Walk through the typical cave, and you’ll find what you expect to find: slick rock, stalagmites and stalactites, molds and insects. But there is more to Khyber than mundane matter. The proper passage in Khyber can take you to the Abyss, or to the furnaces of Fernia. The Vale of the Inner Sun is a similar place, a pocket of space loosely connected to the material world. The heart of the vale is only about a hundred miles in diameter, but it’s possible that the entire place is larger than Khorvaire.</em></p><p></p><p>Khyber isn’t just a set of caves; it is a different layer of reality. What you find going through one passage to Khyber may be completely different from what I find down a different tunnel just a dozen miles away. In the Forgotten Realms, the Underdark is a country that happens to be under the map. Khyber has a few of those—the lost kingdom of the dwarves destroyed by the Daelkyr, the realm of the Umbragen, the home of the Kech Ghaalrac—but you could still take a fork in the road and find something entirely different.</p><p></p><p>In other words, there’s not a lot of information about the terrain and lifeforms found in Khyber because there’s an almost endless array of it. You can find the realms of the Daelkyr and their aberrant hordes. You can find the Umbragen drow. You can find devious Derro in the ruins of Noldrunhold, or the Vale of the Inner Sun. The catch is that you can’t walk from the Vale of the Inner Sun TO Noldrunhold without passing back through Eberron; the two are on different planar layers.</p><p></p><p>Essentially, as opposed to being one more country, Khyber is a sandbox that can contain whatever the story calls for. The Vale of the Inner Sun in Dragon 414 is an example of one of the realms of Khyber… but you can make one that’s entirely different.</p><p></p><p>Will there be more information released about Khyber? I’d love to write a supplement containing a number of different layers of Khyber, and expanding on the Daelkyr, the Umbragen, the lost empire, and other Khyberians we’ve already discussed. However, at the moment I’m not aware of any plans for future Eberron support, so I wouldn’t get your hopes up.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p></p><p>Regarding that bolded bit... have you not been paying attention to the discussion you've been taking part in?... The FR/"default" lore has of devils needing mortal souls to create devils & the gods are a real tangible thing that you can metaphorically call up on the phone. A huge amount of lore is rooted in the foundations of those baselines. Not only are both of those things not true in eberron's baselines where demons refers to all children of khyber including the devil subtype & neither devil/demon nor celestial needs mortal souls to create more & do not directly serve rea ltangible gods you can call up on the phone. The fact that eberron shoots absolute morality in the face while FR & the "default setting" have huge chunks of lore based on those two things is just one more example.... The same is true of the fact that eberron has its own planar cosmology that breaks down (and vice versa) when you start importing too many of the baselines & cosmology from the other. If you don't understand or don't agree with these very obvious low hanging fruit incompatible baselines you can try to argue that, but you have not made any attempts to do so & repeatedly ignored them.</p><p></p><p>The fact that the books keep reprinting that line about the underdark even though FR & salvatore have since changed the underdark into The Drow of FR in the days since 3.5 when eberron was first being designed does not change the fact that <a href="http://keith-baker.com/tag/khyber/" target="_blank">"Khyber is a fundamentally different place than the Underdark."</a>. Nor does it excuse you trying to claim that khyber is Eberron's version of "The Abyss" when The Abyss, it's layers, & its demon lord/king/princes hinge off a different baseline set of assumptions on alignment fiends gods & more.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 7864087, member: 93670"] [USER=27847]@Beleriphon[/USER] Many of those cities are pronounced very differently despite being spelled the same(Vienna & Cairo I know for a fact). If you asked for directions to them from the next town over & used the european pronounciation you are likely to get a confused "Vee-enna... Where?... do you mean Veye-anna?" As for advice & understanding on how to use them, declaring that they are something else is the opposite of that end; but will like require waiting for either Exploring Eberron, An eventual planar sourcebook from Keith, or some other publication because what little there is about khyber is spread all over...[URL='http://keith-baker.com/tag/khyber/'] Here's[/URL] a start [spoiler="Keith Writing about Khyber"] [B][I]Of all the lands across Eberron, the one that I find most mysterious is the vast underground realm of Khyber. I have read about the Underdark of Forgotten Realms and the Darklands of Pathfinder. There is not much detail about the realms. Nothing about its terrain, lifeforms, other denizens etc. Will these be addressed in upcoming future?[/I][/B] Khyber is a fundamentally different place than the Underdark. Here’s a quote from the Eye on Eberron article “The Inner Sun”: [I]Walk through the typical cave, and you’ll find what you expect to find: slick rock, stalagmites and stalactites, molds and insects. But there is more to Khyber than mundane matter. The proper passage in Khyber can take you to the Abyss, or to the furnaces of Fernia. The Vale of the Inner Sun is a similar place, a pocket of space loosely connected to the material world. The heart of the vale is only about a hundred miles in diameter, but it’s possible that the entire place is larger than Khorvaire.[/I] Khyber isn’t just a set of caves; it is a different layer of reality. What you find going through one passage to Khyber may be completely different from what I find down a different tunnel just a dozen miles away. In the Forgotten Realms, the Underdark is a country that happens to be under the map. Khyber has a few of those—the lost kingdom of the dwarves destroyed by the Daelkyr, the realm of the Umbragen, the home of the Kech Ghaalrac—but you could still take a fork in the road and find something entirely different. In other words, there’s not a lot of information about the terrain and lifeforms found in Khyber because there’s an almost endless array of it. You can find the realms of the Daelkyr and their aberrant hordes. You can find the Umbragen drow. You can find devious Derro in the ruins of Noldrunhold, or the Vale of the Inner Sun. The catch is that you can’t walk from the Vale of the Inner Sun TO Noldrunhold without passing back through Eberron; the two are on different planar layers. Essentially, as opposed to being one more country, Khyber is a sandbox that can contain whatever the story calls for. The Vale of the Inner Sun in Dragon 414 is an example of one of the realms of Khyber… but you can make one that’s entirely different. Will there be more information released about Khyber? I’d love to write a supplement containing a number of different layers of Khyber, and expanding on the Daelkyr, the Umbragen, the lost empire, and other Khyberians we’ve already discussed. However, at the moment I’m not aware of any plans for future Eberron support, so I wouldn’t get your hopes up.[B][I][/I][/B] [/spoiler] Regarding that bolded bit... have you not been paying attention to the discussion you've been taking part in?... The FR/"default" lore has of devils needing mortal souls to create devils & the gods are a real tangible thing that you can metaphorically call up on the phone. A huge amount of lore is rooted in the foundations of those baselines. Not only are both of those things not true in eberron's baselines where demons refers to all children of khyber including the devil subtype & neither devil/demon nor celestial needs mortal souls to create more & do not directly serve rea ltangible gods you can call up on the phone. The fact that eberron shoots absolute morality in the face while FR & the "default setting" have huge chunks of lore based on those two things is just one more example.... The same is true of the fact that eberron has its own planar cosmology that breaks down (and vice versa) when you start importing too many of the baselines & cosmology from the other. If you don't understand or don't agree with these very obvious low hanging fruit incompatible baselines you can try to argue that, but you have not made any attempts to do so & repeatedly ignored them. The fact that the books keep reprinting that line about the underdark even though FR & salvatore have since changed the underdark into The Drow of FR in the days since 3.5 when eberron was first being designed does not change the fact that [URL='http://keith-baker.com/tag/khyber/']"Khyber is a fundamentally different place than the Underdark."[/URL]. Nor does it excuse you trying to claim that khyber is Eberron's version of "The Abyss" when The Abyss, it's layers, & its demon lord/king/princes hinge off a different baseline set of assumptions on alignment fiends gods & more. [/QUOTE]
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