ECL & feats

[Robillard]

I am making a Pixie character for a new campaign and the level adjustment is plus four, with one hit die of fey being converted into the first level of the character class, the ECL is 4 total. We are starting out with 7th level characters so I can choose up to three levels of classes. The question comes in the form of how many starting feats and ability points for level advancement do I get?

The Dm thinks that it would be as a 3rd level character, since I am choosing sorcerer that would be one feat for first level and one for third level and no ability score modifications.

We looked in the DMG under ECL, which has very limited information on ECL considering that 3.5 was supposed to clear things up, and on page 209 it gives an example of a character, a bugbear (3 hit dice and a +2 level adjustment) that is also a 14th level fighter/3rd level blackguard is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus.

The only way this character can get an epic level attack and save bonus is if you count the whole ECL in the equation, thus effectively making him a 22nd level character gaining the feats, saves and attack bonuses of a 22nd level character.

If you don't add in the +2 level adjustment or even the 3 hit dice the character would only be either 19th or 20th level, thus ineligible for epic level saves and bonuses.

My DM, who is sitting over my shoulder as I type this so he is interested in the answer as well, thinks that cause it makes no mention of the one epic level feat that you would get (table 6-19, page 206) for 21st level means that you would not get anything for the ECL and only feats and ability modifications for the 3rd level portion of my character. I however think that since the ECL would be 7 I should get 3 feats and one ability score increase.

We are both more than curious about the response, please give input.

 

[The Souljourner]

Feats are done by hitdice, not by ECL, unfortunately. I don't think it would be unbalanced to give feats based on ECL, but that would be a houserule.

Check out pg 7 of the 3.5 Monster Manual "A monster gains feats just like a character does - one for its first Hit Die, a second feat if it has at least 3 HD, and an additional feat for every additional 3 HD."

On the same page, under Level Adjustment "A character's ECL affects the experience the character earns, the amount of experience the character must have before gaining a new level, and the character's starting equipment."

Doesn't say feats or stat modifiers.

Ahh... here we go, MM, page 291 "Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases: A monster's Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases."

There ya go.

-The Souljourner

 

[WCrawford]

First, since the Fey HD is only 1, you completley replace that with a level of Sorcerer. You will have no Fey levels. You will be a 3rd level Sorcerer with a +4 Level Adjustment. You will have 3 Feats, 1 for 1st level, 1 for 3rd level and the Dodge feat for being a Pixie.

 

[Robillard]

Hmm

If this is true how is it then possible for the example character on page 209 of the 3.5 DMG to get epic level saves and attack bonuses?

The only way he could do that is to use his ECL in addition to his class levels, or put another way, to use his +2 level adjustment (which you stated, and rightfully so, should not be included) and his hit dice plus both of his class levels to get to level 22 and thus use the epic level saves and attacks.

Without his +2 level adjustment he would only be a level 20th level character.

I think your statment and mine are in conflict.

Your section that you pointed out was very helpful, but I think the rules, or the examples, are at odds. Can you or any others explain page 209 or why the conflict?

 

[Robillard]

Hmm

Thanks Wcrawford, I already knew that part, but thanks for the comment anyway.

This post was intented to figure out if the pixie would get the feats and ability modifiers of the 7th level character. So far the book condradicts itself in this regaurd.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If this is true how is it then possible for the example character on page 209 of the 3.5 DMG to get epic level saves and attack bonuses?

He gets feats, skills, and ability increases based on hit dice.

He qualifies for Epicosity based on ECL.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

-Hyp.

 

[The Souljourner]

It says right in the section you pointed out with the example, that you use the ECL to determine if you're epic or not.

"The epic rules in this section also work for monsters with character levels, using the creature's effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels."

I don't understand why that precludes feats and ability score increases being dependant on hitdice.

-The Souljourner

 

[Seravin]

This post was intented to figure out if the pixie would get the feats and ability modifiers of the 7th level character. So far the book condradicts itself in this regaurd.

Well the book doesn't quite contradict itself. As you noted, the bugbear example explicitly states that the epic rules work with ECL for epic attack and save bonuses. It doesn't state they apply to calculating anything else - such as feats or ability point increases.
When the Bugbear hit an ECL of 20 he stopped getting BaB and saving throw progressions and started stacking the epic progressions in their place.

As Souljourner and WCrawford have pointed out, feats are only derived from actual HD (or class ability).

So, in your example, the pixie would get the feats based on it's 3 HD.
A bugbear get's feats based on it's 3 monster HD, not it's ECL of 5.

 

[Kitasi]

So... just how does that HD thing work anyhow?

If you play a monster race that has an ECL = to it's HD, ie a 2HD monster with ECL +2, wouldn't that mean you would gain Feats etc. exactly as if you were a multiclassed character with 2 levels of monster? So a Gnoll (I'm thinking they have 2HD and are ECL +2 from memory, could be wrong) who was also a 2nd level sorcerer would have 3 feats. 1 for first HD, one for having 3 total HD, and would add one to an ability score for having 4 total HD. Correct?

 

[Arkhandus]

No. Total HD determine feat acquisition, ability score increases, actual Character Level, and maximum skill ranks. A gnoll sorcerer-2 has 2 feats; 1 for his first HD, another for his 3rd HD (the 3rd and 4th HD would be class hit dice, but class and monster hit dice are stacked for these purposes). (I'm not bothering to look up the gnoll myself, could have different HD/LA)

Level Adjustments do not count towards Character Level, feats, ability increases, maximum skill ranks, or the like.

Creatures that normally have only 1 monster hit die replace it with a class level if they begin taking class levels.