ECL of dragons

[poilbrun]

Hello all!

Is there any place where I can find the ECL of dragons above the values given in the Monster Manual (where they only as far as very young or young usually)?

Thanks!

 

[Jdvn1]

There are some in the Draconomicon, though I don't think they get to Epic LA's, if that's what you're looking for.

 

[moritheil]

If memory serves, Sukael once worked out a formula from the existing LAs. It might tend to fall apart towards epic levels, though.

 

[Fieari]

Upper Krust has a nice set of formula to derive the ECL of any given creature. Using version 5 of his ECL document, he gives the following ECLs for dragons.

The first number is the result of the formula with all factors. This involves fractional ECLs, as you might imagine. The second number is the "Golden Rule", which says "Class Levels or Hit Dice should always comprise at least 50% of the creatures total CR. When they don’t, halve all excess CR beyond double the creatures CR modifier for Character Levels and Hit Dice." The golden rule also rounds down fractions.

The third number is the "Silver Rule", which says "These results show us that, using this system, at non-epic levels PCs have (on average) a 16% advantage over their monstrous peers. So if you wanted to be incredibly accurate you could multiply up to the first 20 points of a monsters CR by 85% (x 0.85) to redress class imbalance. This imbalance stops from CR 20 onwards, so for creatures of CR 20+ simply subtract 3 from the score; since that represents the 15% drop in the first 20 points of CR."

The silver rule is optional though, and the Golden Rule might be the best bet.

In general, although these numbers are excruciatingly accurate, you can simply say "Dragon ECL = 2x CR". In general, "non-dragon ECL = 3/2 CR". That's not 100% accurate in all cases, but it's a good general rule that works most of the time.

	        Base	Golden	Silver
		ECL	Rule	Rule
Dragon,	Black:
Wyrmling	6.24	6	5
Very Young	9.69	9	8
Young		13.57	13	11
Juvenile	16.684	16	14
Young Adult	23.486	23	20
Adult		29.573	29	26
Mature Adult	34.923	33	30
Old		38.874	38	35
Very Old	43.732	42	39
Ancient		47.903	47	44
Wyrm		55.099	53	50
Great Wyrm	59.98	57	54

Dragon,	Blue:
Wyrmling	9.115	9	7
Very Young	12.91	12	10
Young		16.515	16	14
Juvenile	22.26	22	19
Young Adult	28.311	27	24
Adult		35.114	33	30
Mature Adult	41.015	38	35
Old		44.265	42	39
Very Old	48.45	46	43
Ancient		55.899	52	49
Wyrm		60.41	57	54
Great Wyrm	65.416	61	58

Dragon,	Green:
Wyrmling	8.21	7	6
Very Young	11.95	11	10
Young		15.6	15	13
Juvenile	20.99	20	17
Young Adult	26.786	26	23
Adult		33.77	31	28
Mature Adult	37.873	36	33
Old		42.802	40	37
Very Old	46.938	45	42
Ancient		54.26	51	48
Wyrm		58.61	55	52
Great Wyrm	63.504	60	57

Dragon,	Red:
Wyrmling	10.41	10	8
Very Young	15.77	15	13
Young		20.47	19	16
Juvenile	23.924	23	20
Young Adult	32.046	30	27
Adult		36.998	34	31
Mature Adult	41.714	39	36
Old		48.965	45	42
Very Old	54.105	50	47
Ancient		59.345	55	52
Wyrm		63.911	59	56
Great Wyrm	71.973	65	62

Dragon,	White:
Wyrmling	5.05	4	4
Very Young	8.26	8	7
Young		11.9	11	10
Juvenile	15.174	15	12
Young Adult	21.046	21	18
Adult		25.256	25	22
Mature Adult	32.122	31	28
Old		36.096	36	33
Very Old	41.023	40	37
Ancient		45	45	42
Wyrm		51.729	50	47
Great Wyrm	57.132	55	52

Dragon,	Brass:
Wyrmling	6.703	6	5
Very Young	10.116	10	8
Young		14.799	14	12
Juvenile	18.544	18	15
Young Adult	27.046	25	22
Adult		30.251	29	26
Mature Adult	37.025	35	32
Old		41.2	39	36
Very Old	46.099	44	41
Ancient		50.41	48	45
Wyrm		57.608	54	51
Great Wyrm	62.245	58	55

Dragon,	Bronze:
Wyrmling	11.463	10	8
Very Young	15.206	14	12
Young		19.399	18	15
Juvenile	25.332	23	20
Young Adult	31.231	29	26
Adult		38.272	34	31
Mature Adult	42.402	39	36
Old		47.334	43	40
Very Old	51.482	48	45
Ancient		58.93	54	51
Wyrm		63.904	58	55
Great Wyrm	68.417	63	60

Dragon,	Copper:
Wyrmling	7.79	7	6
Very Young	11.24	11	9
Young		15.96	15	13
Juvenile	19.73	19	16
Young Adult	27.166	26	23
Adult		32.366	31	28
Mature Adult	39.48	36	33
Old		42.804	40	37
Very Old	47.692	45	42
Ancient		51.935	49	46
Wyrm		59.143	55	52
Great Wyrm	63.733	60	57

Dragon,	Gold:
Wyrmling	13.31	12	10
Very Young	18.92	17	15
Young		22.77	21	18
Juvenile	28.672	27	24
Young Adult	35.665	32	29
Adult		40.603	37	34
Mature Adult	45.111	42	39
Old		53.517	48	45
Very Old	58.561	53	50
Ancient		64.065	58	55
Wyrm		71.507	64	61
Great Wyrm	77.212	69	66

Dragon,	Silver:
Wyrmling	12.065	11	9
Very Young	15.96	15	13
Young		20.005	19	16
Juvenile	26.002	25	22
Young Adult	32.004	30	27
Adult		39.989	35	32
Mature Adult	43.256	40	37
Old		48.324	45	42
Very Old	53.127	49	46
Ancient		60.0675	55	52
Wyrm		66.11	60	57
Great Wyrm	74.234	67	64

 

[poilbrun]

Thanks guys, basically, it's what I thought... Nothing official.

Thanks for the details too Fieari, I had already looked at UK's numbers (though I only have version 4, where did you get version 5?).

My problem, though, is the same with the WotC system and UK's system. When you look at the ECL of the creatures, they really don't compare to PC's.
Look at the ECL of great wyrms (UK's system): from 52 for White to 66 for Gold. Are you telling me that a great wyrm White is equal to a level 52 character? If, as was planned, I have a group of three level 55 PC plus a great wyrm White, I don't expect the dragon to add anything useful to the party except being an extra target for the enemies.
Using WotC's system, as outlined in Draconomicon, a great wyrm gold would be the equivalent of a character with a level equal to HD (41) + LA (a young already has +6). A white would be HD (36) + LA (juvenile has +5).

There's no way in either system that you could have a dragon in a party with such rules. I'm not even sure that I should use only HD to compare dragons and PC, especially at epic level. A great wyrm gold has 41HD. If you compare it to a level 41 PC, it is a lot worse. It casts as a level 19 sorcerer, which means that its magic will be mostly useless. Its attack bonus is quite good, but it will be hard pressed to go toe-to-toe with a fighter with its AC 42; though it might have better hit points (I'm not too sure how high the CON score of a level 41 fighter would be).

Well, anyway, if someone has a nice system to make it work, I'd be glad if he could share

 

[Fieari]

You know, if you also used U_K's 4 artifact wealth system, it might actually work out. Use two artifacts for defense, two for offense. At Great Wyrm level, that'd easily more than double your armor class, grant an always active miss chance, maybe have some automatic weapon blocking going on, and then on the offensive side, a boatload of automatic metamagic capacity would make the 19 sorcerer levels actually worth something, and then you've got an artifact left over that you can stack with some nasty melee effects. Maybe something that makes it so you can't miss? Or perhaps doubles your power attack ratio? And that's not even talking about the sheer damage bonuses and effects you can get...

I think it could potentially be worth it.